reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
What People Get Wrong About Leaving Institutional Church | #reChurch Ep. 22
We challenge the idea that leaving the institutional church equals leaving faith and map a path from spectator Christianity to a living, gift-driven community. Scripture, story, and straight talk point toward maturity, mission, and gatherings that actually edify.
• why “forsake the gathering” doesn’t mean “never leave Sunday”
• the difference between event-centered faith and body life
• gifts, accountability, and mutual edification as the point of gathering
• how 501c3 culture incentivises platform, transaction, and control
• practical fruit of table-centered ministry and simple obedience
• moving from passive consumption to disciple-making action
• handling accusations of being rogue or rebellious
• finding new friends and letting fruit speak over explanations
• season two roadmap toward reimagining and rebuilding church
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So it's really wild to me that when you step out of the institutional church, traditional church, whatever you want to call it, a lot of times it's seen as you actually walking away from your faith or like walking away from believers. Why? Why do you think people perceive it that way from the outside? Because that's something that we get a lot in our DMs questions that we get is people battling having those conversations with other people that think when they walk away from the building, they're walking away from their faith or doing something wrong. They're in sin. Why do you think?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I think that's a really good statement because when I think because they they go to scripture, and first of all, just what they're being like indoctrinalized with, like, because think about it, like community is preached so heavily. And and what does the Bible say about gathering? And there's this whole forsaking the gathering, that word forsaking, which I hate. If I ever hear that verse again, I just want to be like thump, you know, because true forsaking something is so much stronger than stepping away from what the Western world calls church. I think the issue at large, correct me if I'm wrong, is the understanding we have of church is so not the original context. You see what I'm saying? So when we hear you're forsaking the gathering, we think the church building the institution, but that's not even what I picture when I think of the church gathering.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, and that and that goes to my second question, which is uh really my opinion is that we have centered our understanding of uh, or basically we've confused like the the church as an event or as an organ organization as like the central aspect of our faith. And so I think people they they attribute a greater importance to it because it's like no matter what we say, it's this it's the central important thing of our faith is like where you go on Sundays and what you do on Sundays. So when you step away from that, it's almost like nobody can have a conversation about, well, are you gonna ask me what I'm doing? You know what I'm saying, in place of that or what I'm doing outside of that. But it's almost like that discussion, it doesn't even go there because they can't get over the fact that you've stepped out of what is traditionally known as a church event. And so where do you think that like cognitive dissonance comes from? Like why are why do you think there's such confusion around what people see as the centrality of their faith? Because I think, and and let me just say this last statement. I think people have replaced Jesus with the gathering that is supposed to be for Jesus.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I well, I think of a conversation you and I had where we talk about, you know, when people come into this mega church model, right? And they're like, everyone, come into community, but I want you to close your eyes. I want you to face forward, I want you to picture Jesus in front of you. Like I think, first of all, we fully have missed the context of what it means to gather. It's not for us to have this central focus on Christ, it's to have a focus on one another, to serve one another, to love one another, to come together and gather, practice the gifts of the spirit, you know, those types of things. It's not for you to have some intimate relationship with Jesus in that moment. That's what every other day of the week inside your home in your secret place praying is, you know. Um it's actually to come together and be a body and exercise the gifts, practice righteousness with one another, hold accountability and things like that. So I think that's the first misconception. But I keep going back to the thought of the 501c3 model did not exist what, even a hundred years ago? Like, did the 501c3 institutional model in the sense of how we look at it as a whole in the Western world? I'm even saying like a legal entity. Yes. Like, was that even a thing? Like, I think if Jesus was walking the earth today, he would start flipping some flipping tables because it has become a business, it's become a marketplace, has become um everything he said it shouldn't be. But we've re-institutionalized it into the exact same model. We just have fancier names and it's a little cleaner and um more socially acceptable, but it's the same thing that he flipped over. So when people step away from it, they get chastised for it. And it's like, why? Why are they being chastised for walking away from yeah, something that like Jesus condemned?
SPEAKER_00:I want to read a scripture that I came across and it's very interesting. And I want to hear your thoughts on how you think people would respond to this hearing this, of looking at the modern uh Western version of church that we experience. Acts 17, 24 through 25 says the God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth, and he does not live in temples built by human hands, and he is not served by human hands. And if he needed and as if he needed anything, rather he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. Doesn't that fly in the face of like when you go into the tr traditional service and it starts off with like we're in the house of the Lord, or like this whole idea that we're in this holy place where God's presence dwells? And I think the conversation that I'd like to have with a lot of people, or I do have with a lot of people, and and is are we reverting, you know, back to the old testament model of God living in in physical spaces and we go to that physical space. I don't think people think that far into it to realize that we are actually reverting to what Jesus came to transform us out of. That's right. Like we're actually reverting into this old temple system. And what happens is, and we've talked about this before because earlier you mentioned like in that we we kind of breezed over that, but a lot of people that's gonna throw off when you say, like, hey, church, we're not here to focus on our relationship with Jesus when we're in a church gathering. They're like, What? It's all about Jesus. And you're like, yes, it's all about Jesus. We're here in the name of Jesus. But when you actually look at the scriptures in the New Testament, in the book of Acts, what you know, Paul's instruction through the letters, he's not saying that, he's never saying that you're there to like do this and that for Jesus. It's like every let everything be done for edification to one another.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:So that may include expressing Christ to one another through one another, but you're there to be edified and pushed towards Jesus, pointed towards Jesus yourself. So we're there as a family. But what happens a lot of times in these uh larger event style gatherings is there is no uh relational, there's no relationship going on. It may be, hey, greet one another for the first like 60 seconds and then sit down and listen passively as you stare at your neighbors back of, you know, back of their head. So these are the types of things that we need to, you know, sit back and think, is this Jesus, is this what Jesus actually wants us doing, or are we actually spending hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the hours of our life um just doing what we've seen done, you know, before.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Well, I even think up to that one time where we end up doing a deliverance on a girl that had sat beside us in church for years. You know, I'd known her since I was like six years old. And she'd been battling things her whole life. And I remember when I actually took time and like sat down with her and heard her story and like lit walked her, like listened to her walk through her journey in life and like what she had been through. I realized as I was listening to her, like, first of all, she wasn't born again. And second of all, like, this chick is demonized, you know what I'm saying? And wrestling with that with her, going deep into really hard places with her, and then seeing her set free, you know, and then we share the testimony with a friend, and he gets tears in his eyes because he's like, I've sat behind that girl every Sunday for years, and I never knew. And it's like, that's what institutionalism breeds. It breeds, first of all, it breeds so many things, but it breeds um not true transparency. It's artificial. It's an artificial environment that breeds lack of transparency, it breeds um like individualism, it breeds, you know, performance, it breeds so many nasty things and honestly, immaturity. Uh, so for me, like when I, you know, because we do, we, we gather organically inside of our home where it's a dialogue conversation like this, just add four or five more chairs, you know, um, where we're talking and we're discussing scripture. And when you have, you know, very intelligent young people in their 20s and early 30s coming to you saying, like, I've learned more in two nights here in this home than I've learned in my entire 25 to 37 years or 45 years of church, like it just makes you question, you know, like, so I just look at like what is the fruit of what's being produced? Like, can people stand on their own two feet and confidently share the gospel? Could you baptize somebody if they came to you? And if you can't do, or can you cast out a demon if it happens, or can you pray for the sick or whatever confidently without feeling like you got to call Pastor Joe to come help you? And again, I always say Joe, I'm not picking on any of Joe's out there.
SPEAKER_00:There's a dude that listens every week, maybe Joe, and he's like, What have I done?
SPEAKER_02:Um, Pastor Joe out there, like come and you know, do this for me. Like that, it just it just really burdens my heart. So, but then again, people get chat. I think a lot of people right now, I'm gonna make a very bold statement because we all know like it's coming.
SPEAKER_00:That's rare.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, right. We all know that I'm gonna say, I love percentages. People are like, you're always throwing percentages out there. I would say 60% of the church right now is wrestling with, is this all that I get to do in the kingdom of God until Jesus returns? Like, is this it? I come in here every Sunday, maybe even Wednesday nights if you're extra holy. You know what I'm saying? And you sit down and it's three songs tithe and offerings, you know, and a 30 to 45 minute message, and then you shake some people's hands on the way out and tell them have a good week, see you next week. Like, is this it? It can't be it. Like Jesus did not die a brutal death. So that's what Christianity could become. Like Christianity unbox is lethal.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Why do you think that Christianity's been put into this 501c3 box to begin with? So it can be managed.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:So what if we unboxed it? Like, what kind of Christians would we reproduce? Dangerous ones. I think even the government would be afraid of. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you can fully embrace and follow Jesus no matter what. Um, running through my head, I had a recent conversation. I was on a podcast, and and the guy was kind of challenging me in a good way a little bit, just different thoughts and stuff. So I've got all of these things running through my mind as we're speaking. Um, and I think that's good because I want to tell people, we didn't mention this, we just kind of jumped in and got into gear because we want to get this conversation going. But as you can see, we have a new background. So this is really officially the start of season two of the podcast. And we want to start fresh from the beginning and walk through practically basically the whole journey of what it looks like to step out of traditional church and then start to what does that look like when you come out? So each episode is going to kind of like touch on on things uh moving in a specific direction that's supposed to be practical and helpful for the person's journey, kind of coming out of box Christianity, you know, into the real world and functioning outside the walls of the institution.
SPEAKER_02:And I want to add one thing to what you're saying right there before we fully jump into that, is we're not preaching from a place of I expect you to do this. We're we're preaching from a place of this is what we live. Like we lived in Nepal, the Lord called us back to the states. We started a movement, and then he said, move to a whole other city and reproduce that somewhere else with zero, like, I'm not from Austin, Texas. I don't know anyone. And within a year, like, what have we seen? You know what I'm saying? Like, this is possible for anyone to do.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You just have to put yourself out there and you have to be bold for what you believe in and you can't compromise. Um, you know, like we we invite people just over for lunch, and any second that Jesus can come up, oh, I'm going there. You know what I mean? John's like, and here she goes. But it's like, what happens when that takes place? You know, people get free, people want to be discipled, people are tired, people are having a bad day on the regular. Like, all you got to do is just ask a little bit of a deeper question than how's the weather? You know, so I say all this to say like this is from strong convictions of experience, and we're practically living it out.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's funny, that's the reason that there's been inconsistency with the podcast, is because we're actually doing the stuff. Like, this is not the podcast is meant to be an overflow of our life of ministry. That's right. Um, we don't run a nonprofit organization, we don't run a church organization. Like we minister organically out of life. And so those conversations happen. People are led to Christ around dinner tables, people are baptized in bathtubs, and people are discipled in homes and cafes and and coffee shops and all of that stuff. And so we wanted this to be a place where um we could have conversation and dialogue. This is not meant to be some like a deep Bible study teaching thing. This is meant to be like real life conversation where we will get into scriptures, but we'll also talk about experience because people are dealing with some real, real hard stuff. Yeah. Like a lot of people are stepping out of this world that that that's all they've ever known when it comes to Christianity, is what they've experienced in the organization in traditional church. So they're they're stepping out. And and not only are they stepping into something new, they're getting a lot of kickback from the people around them that are should be supportive. And so we want to be that voice to to you guys, to people to say, like, hey, it's okay. And this is how we navigated it. And like, you're not crazy. You know, we experience this, and uh, you're not walking away from your faith, you're walking towards Jesus in many ways. Um, you know, Jesus isn't on payroll.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I just say, I just have to say, like, shame on every pastor who condemns someone for becoming mature and actually learning how to walk without them holding their hand and spoon feeding them. Like, shame on you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I also think, I don't know. I'm I mean, I think there's there's a lot of a lot of uh pastors that are maybe operating out of control and out of hurt and out of fear and stuff like that. Um, but I think do you I mean, do you think there are some out there that just that legitimately think when somebody makes a disciple or starts a group outside of their building or organization that they're it's competition or for sure, because there's money involved.
SPEAKER_02:There's money involved. And nowadays you can build a platform on the back of Christ to make you make yourself cool, you know. So I think because of of the, I mean, but you you even see it in the scriptures, like, you know, people were like, well, I follow rabbi such and such, and I do this, and I do that, you know, and I follow this person, and it's like is that's how the world measures success, you know. So yeah, of course, I think pastors deal with um that that competition factor uh because the the system breeds that, it breeds that.
SPEAKER_00:So I think there's people too, you know. I keep thinking about this recent conversation that I had with somebody. There's people that, you know, you said, oh, maybe 60% are like dissatisfied, meaning it's not that it's supposed to fulfill us in some way, but dissatisfied in the sense of they know there's there's more. And I don't mean more as in like better worship songs and deeper experiences with with God and healing emotions. And no, no, no, no, no. I'm talking about more as in there's more to this life than just always receiving being in passive mode. Like there's something that you can go out and do. And that's the thing that people miss is like they get all worried about the doing part, as if you're gonna get into works-based salvation or something. And it's like, no, Jesus gave us something to do after we have surrendered our life to him. But like miracle, like real miracles. I'm not, again, not going back to like the miracles you're experiencing of like uh, you know, gold dust falling in your sanctuary or whatever, whatever, whatever that is. It's like the miracles of when you're out literally sharing the gospel, whether it's on the streets at a McDonald's or in your home, um, deliverance breaking out around the dinner table. Like we we experience that. Or uh, you know, people uh being led to the Lord in your home. Like it's such a such a rich, amazing experience to see God move outside of all the man-made things when we try to facilitate some kind of environment, if that makes sense. Right. Because for the longest time, it was like you'd have your normal church services and you're like, Oh, I think I felt God during that song, but it's really hard to tell because you're like, Did my emotions just get stirred up? Am I just like whatever? And then when you the first time you have a meeting or a conversation where the gospel's being shared and there's no music, there's no fog, there's no back, there's actually like our kids are in the background, like running around and maybe getting in a little argument or something like that. And people are still getting born again, the gospel is still being responded to, people are still getting there's no emotional stimulation whatsoever. Like demons are being cast out, and and there's nothing, there's nothing you can point to and say, Well, that worked because we made the atmosphere just right. Yeah. And I'm like, Do you know what the right atmosphere is for God to move miraculous? Is like holiness and obedience. Yes, right. Into him. We have been taught that the right atmosphere is like slow background music, somebody incubator, like a hospital, like you know what I mean. Yeah. I'm like, so the Lord won't move. I'm like, you're you're just stirring people's emotions. And then they leave. And I think honestly, this is a lot of the argument people, the struggle that people have, kind of conversations behind the scene with leaving that setting is it feels so good to the flesh. That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean, we had that conversation, you know, it's so funny how the Lord brings you, like in different places, you get a different audience, you know what I mean? So, like in our last season of life, it was a bit more of a like an older audience, um, a little bit more religious, like more rigid and refined. And now the audience we have now is uh extremely colorful and young. And they're they've been raised up in this um over sense, you know, oversensory environment. And now we're bringing them into our home and they're like, oh, like there's no hype. I'm like, nah, the hype, no, no hype, bruh. Like the hype is Christ. And we're gonna, we're gonna teach you how to follow him, we're gonna teach you how to walk with him. Now there's some hype when some demons start flying out. I mean, my blood pressure gets going. You know what I'm saying? Everybody knows I get a little loud, but there's no, there's no hype. I I'm not gonna emotionally stir you. You're gonna walk out here, you're gonna remember what we discussed because there is no emotional stimulation here. And you're gonna be held to actually apply what you've been given because you can't run away when there's only 12 people in a room. Like we're gonna talk about it next week. You know what I'm saying? So there's something beautiful when you remove the fancy parts of it all. Like, you know, in Jesus' day, they had fancy colosseums with, you know, plated in gold and, you know, fancy speakers with robes made with silk and all these things. And Jesus is like, let's meet out in the wilderness in the dirt. No, no fun, no light, no nothing, you know, no nothing spectacular. And yeah, he drew a crowd, but then he preached the truth. The whole crowd left. Then he's left with 72. He gives them the Lord to go cast out demons and heal the sick and preach the gospel. They come back and he's like, Oh, let me really test your heart. And he gives them a hard word. And then they all left. And the 12 are standing there and he looks at them. He's like, You gonna go too? Like he was almost almost like, I dare you, go. And they're like, uh Lord, do you remember we have nothing to go back to? Like that's who he's looking for, not the ones who have something to go back to. Because here's the thing I see so many people step into this, you know, try to step into this true place of what church actually is, according to the book of Acts. And if it doesn't give them the emotional feelings and hows they want, I find them very quickly going back to the building.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then they'll they'll put down what they experienced in a more organic setting because they didn't get enough or they didn't feel like they were babied enough or whatever the case may be. Again, I don't want that kind of disciple. I want the one that's like, hey, I'm in this thick or thin, hell or how water, I'll die for this thing, like for Jesus, you know, I'll put my life on the line because that's where I'm at. Like I tell the Lord all the time, I better not go out because I'm jaywalking. You know what I'm saying? Like it better be for a purpose and a reason. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you even hear the a lot of the language around it. Two things that popped in my head were just the stuff we say kind of is almost like a symptom of the deeper problem. Um, and you know, we're we're having this conversation in this episode because this is this is like, yes, helping people who are maybe stepping or out or transitioning, but it's also this is problem awareness episode. That's right. Like, so you're gonna hear us talk about, you know, the issues now, and then we'll move into more practical application of what we do when we step out in later episodes. But like you hear language like uh people that are dissatisfied saying, I'm not being fed enough or this and that. And and the response is typically like, well, you just need to serve or stay where you are. And it's like tends to be this like overlook that feeling of what they're they're you know, what they're sensing and what they're feeling because there's there's truth to what they're feeling. Now, my correction would be like, you're not there for a pastor to feed you. No, like that that doesn't make sense. He's not there to cut up food and put it in your mouth for you, and then you just live off of his food forever. But that dissatisfaction of you feeling like you're not being fed is because you're not that what it means is you're not actually doing anything with what you've been given. And here's the scary part, and this is why you see two things happen with this scenario. Either the people get so unsatisfied that they move on to something else, that they go seeking something else, um, and really actually do something with what they have, or they ignore it and eventually become more and more complacent. Right. So they fall asleep. And that's because Jesus tells us that for the one who doesn't do anything with what he has, doesn't multiply it, even what you have will be taken from you.
SPEAKER_02:Who I had tell me about that. Oh, good.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I um, you know, when we first moved to Austin, the Lord told us like take one year to kind of settle. And honestly, in my mind, I'm like, oh, that's long enough because we've been going hardcore. Like we've live literally lived in multiple over the past 15 years of Jesus Walk. We've lived in multiple countries, we've had lots of kids, we've started businesses, we've done started a house church movement, we've discipled so many people. We get people reaching out to us constantly, deliverance all the time. And I was like, oh, a year might not be long enough. You know what I'm saying? But then I remember feeling around the time, like ministry was definitely happening, happening in that year, but just not on like full throttle like before. And I remember when it got time to like engage into it, like it, you know, how you like crank a car that hadn't been cranked in a while. I was like, you know, I felt like it was like a bit of a blah blah after that year. And I just thought to myself, like, if I would have just stayed in that place, because that that year was it was good. Like there was a lot of like just going to bed on at normal times and waking up at a normal time and all these things, you could find yourself so comfortable in that place, you know. Um, and now like that it's full throttle again. I mean, we're doing like three, what, three, four deliverances a week now and like baptisms on the regular and meeting in multiple groups right now. And it's just been beautiful because I when I read Mark Four, it says, you know, what you've been given will be taken, and even what you think you had will be like taken from you, right? Like you thought you had something, but like you never did anything with it. So you really didn't have it at all. And how many people do you see in the church? Because their pastor knows a lot. They think they have something too, or or even in our community in the past, like, you know, we come in constantly week after week with testimonies of miracles and different things like that. And people are like, they think it's theirs, but like then you step away and they're left with, like, oh, well, maybe I'm the illusion. Yeah. So it will, what you even think you have will be taken from you. So like if you stop using the revelation and the gifts you've been giving, they will be removed from you. Like that's a scary process. Like, I've even heard a pastor say once, like, yeah, I used to see miracles and deliverance, but it just stopped. I don't know why it just stopped. And I'm like, well, should it have just stopped? Or did you stop using what you've been given and then it was maybe removed and handed to someone else who would do something with it, you know? So this walk with Jesus, it's ongoing. You don't get to have like a few cool years. Like, if you've fallen stagnant, wake up. Yeah, get it back. Like, don't get lazy, you know.
SPEAKER_00:I see all of those things because I'm trying to think practically what it would look like for like revelation to be removed from you. And I think that could mean your level of faith towards something happening. So if your faith is not expressed, like say praying, you're spending a lot of time praying for people. This was my experience. My faith was really like high. Even though I was seeing some stuff not happen, I was seeing a lot happen. And you just stop praying for people. It's like all of a sudden you become skeptical, you're not so sure. And so that's what I would say to people, that's what that can look like. Like you find yourself six months from the last time you actually prayed for somebody, and you're you're like, yeah, I don't, I don't know if that's possible. And to me, that would be like something being whether that's God like physically removing that from you, or you just lose it because you haven't used it in the same way that your muscles just start to deteriorate if you're not.
SPEAKER_02:You gotta actually use it.
SPEAKER_00:Mm-hmm. And it makes sense too, because if God is is giving you supernatural tools, if you will, um, to further the mission, like and lo, I'll be with you at like as you go, right? Even to the end of the age, but it's the Great Commission. He's like, as you go, I'll be with you. And you're not going.
SPEAKER_02:Is he with you?
SPEAKER_00:Like he's like, I can't go with you. You ain't going anywhere. You don't need that. So we can't sit back. That's probably our biggest temptation in the West is like we our lack of need for the miraculous to happen.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:And so we don't see it.
SPEAKER_02:It's so funny because every time someone walks through my door, you know, so many people will be like, let's go out to dinner. I'm like, why don't you come to my house for a meal? Because what I want to talk about over dinner in a restaurant might not go over real great or well, you know. So like invite them into your home. And like, I want people to feel slightly a little uncomfortable in a good way because I don't want them to leave the same, even if it doesn't lead to deliverance or baptism, like them thinking, them starting to ask God questions, you know, like what did she mean by that? You know what I'm saying? Like, we have to get to that point where we're bold enough to have and crank up and start those conversations with people. Cause, like you said, like when you haven't prayed for someone in a while, it's like cranking a car and you haven't cranked it in a year. It's like it's like this skip, you know, you got to get back into that. So, my encouragement for people is like be bold. Like, just be bold and be okay if it makes someone around you uncomfortable because that person, you don't know what they're praying in their in their own personal time with the Lord and the questions that they're asking, and you stepping outside of your comfort zone might be the very thing they need for that moment.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So we're kind of creeping into a little bit of the practicals of like what fruitful ministry in life looks like outside of the walls, but I want to kind of turn back a little bit because I think a lot of people are on the journey out. Either they're in the middle of it or they just stepped out and they're in this place to where um maybe they don't have a lot of people around them that um are living this way. So it can be really discouraging because you feel really alone. And I want to address a few things or common, I would call them misconceptions, but they're really just common things people have to say to you when you're stepping away from what they're used to. Some of these we've already talked about in this episode, but I'll have you just comment on them. So the first one is something that we mentioned earlier, but hey, you're neglecting Hebrews 10 because it says, do not forsake the gathering. Number one, is that true? And if it's not, why not? How are you not forsaking the gathering?
SPEAKER_02:Well, what does the word forsake mean? You know?
SPEAKER_00:To like abandon.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right, to abandon something. So people stepping again, stepping out of the 501c3 and Institution, is that abandoning the gathering? Right? You see what I'm saying? Like again, because what we talked about in the car on the way here, like we need to reshape how we see church. Like when I say the word church to the common person, they picture a cathedral, the Catholic Church, like a massive building.
SPEAKER_00:Or in modern context, a warehouse.
SPEAKER_02:A warehouse with um stones on the front, you know, and like a pot flowing with water. That's what they kind of picture on the outside.
SPEAKER_00:You're talking about a specific church.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe. Um, you know, like that's what they picture. And so if that's your context of what church is, of course that verse makes sense to you when somebody says, I'm leaving the institutional building, like you're leaving the warehouse. Why could you ever do that? You're in sin, you're in rebellion, you heathen, you know, you're walking away from Jesus. But what if I told you that's not what church is? Like, what if what you're reading into that scripture didn't exist when that verse was written? And these people were like leaving because they didn't want to be held accountable. They didn't want to one another, they were dabbling back in their sinner, or maybe they were going back to Judaism. Who knows what was actually going on? Because I mean, it's the Hebrew church there that he's talking to, and he warned them multiple times like, please don't go back to Judaism. Like, you may die if you go back. Like, don't go back. You know, that's the context of Hebrews, right? So, I mean, Hebrews chapter six is like, don't turn away from your faith or or it's impossible to return.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So it's like that is what I see as what the context of that verse is talking about, not someone saying, I'm done with what Jesus turned over and called a marketplace. Yeah. Two different things.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. And that's so important to understand the context of where that was written. People don't even ask that question, they just apply it to modern day. So they're like, oh yeah, obviously the writer of Hebrews was talking about the Sunday event that you're going to, and he means don't neglect going to that meeting. And it's like, no, well, what was going on right in that time? Well, the writer of Hebrews was writing to Hebrew Christians. So that means that there had to be something in that context that was making them potentially neglect getting together with other Christians. Uh, well, let's see, there was persecution breaking out, so there was a heavy threat on these Hebrew believers, on these Jewish believers, um, because they were converting to Christianity from Judaism. And so if you think through that line logically, well, what would stop the persecution?
SPEAKER_02:Go back.
SPEAKER_00:Turn back to Judaism, which means that you're no longer meeting with Christian brothers and sisters in Christ pursuing Jesus, but you're neglecting that, and therefore it's causing you to go back to the very thing. And we see that elsewhere in Hebrews. There's tons of Hebrews is like one of the books that has the most warnings about shipwrecking and walking away from your faith. And it's like, why? Well, it's because they had received the message, they had responded to the gospel, and then they're now turning away from it. So there's nothing to come back to because they're turning away from the only thing that can save their life. And so that's what Hebrews is talking about. So when you understand that context, you're like, oh, he was saying, don't neglect gathering together just because of persecution and hardship, because you have nothing to go back to.
SPEAKER_02:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:And so he was encouraging them to stay in community. Okay. Now we're like, oh, okay, now you can begin to ask the question, hey, when you're leaving uh the institution or the Sunday gathering, like, what are you going to? Now that may not always mean a person is going to a new community outside the church. Maybe they spend a time where like they're like, I don't know, I'm just figuring things out. But their intention is not to just go rogue.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And that's what people think that they're that they're doing. So that's one of the uh next things that you'll hear is that you're either in rebellion or you're like a rogue Christian. So they immediately put you in this box of now, it's not about what you're for, that is pursuing Jesus' ideal for church, but you're it's about what you're against, like you're against us now. So it's almost like they immediately create division to try and box in what you're doing. Um have you heard that before? And how do you respond to that?
SPEAKER_02:That's been our whole lives. We've been called rogue, you know. I'm sorry, I'm over here thinking about something you said we were talking about earlier. But yes, we have been called rogue for doing what we're doing, um, or rebellious, you know, um, those types of things. But man, if this is what rebellion looks like, I'm going for it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_02:I can't go back. I'm sorry, I've seen too much to go back. Like I've seen God show up too many times to go back. I've seen too many lives to change to go back. So if I'm in rebellion, sign me up for more rebellion. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00:Like I am seeing rebellion against complacency.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, like I've done it both ways. I worked in the mega church model. We did worship and like led small groups and all these things. And like, I cannot go back. Please don't make me go back. Don't put a bridle back on me and make me perform again. I can't do it, you know? But I'm just over here sitting here thinking, like, what is so interesting to me is like the Bible says that we are to be like separate from the world. We're like to look totally, totally different from the world, right? But like we're sitting here saying that the 501c3 model is church. But what if I told you the 501c3 model? If you've ever opened a 501c3, you're in the same box with Muslims and Buddhists and and the Mormon church and everyone else who opens up a 501c3. You're all in the same soup pot governmentally. You know what I'm saying? Like put you all in the same. Like, when are we supposed to look different?
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, like if you've opened a 501c3, but you're not a church, you're still in the same soup pot as Buddhist, Muslim, you're no different, Jehovah's Witnesses. Like you're all considered churches, boom, in that place. So, like, what are we doing? And why are we saying we're forsaking something when we're supposed to look different than what the world says it should look like, right? But we've created this box now where every religion that opens uh any kind of 501c3 nonprofit ministry in America, you all go into the same broth. Like there's a problem.
SPEAKER_00:It gives me this picture of like the the box, the the legal entity, if you will. And there's this like dangling carrot inside to get you to crawl into the box. And it's like, hey, if you crawl in this box, you have you have tax-free status and you don't have to tell us anything about what you do about your finances and and stuff like that. And it's like just climb in the box. And people are like, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with taking advantage of a little tax exemption status and stuff like that? And I'm like, a lot.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:A lot. Because once you crawl into that box, then you have to play by the same rules that everybody else is playing with. And that's where all the corruption and compromise comes in.
SPEAKER_02:The system breeds it. I think of that random soup your grandma makes that we all hate, that she just throws all the leftovers into the pot with some water and some salt and pepper, you know, and you're like, that's what it's become. That's what church has become because we're literally throwing everything into the same pot. And there's something wrong with that to me. Like it just really rubs me wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because I I just asked, have to ask myself the question, where is it leading? And I don't think a lot of people um think through that. Yeah. Like, okay, if you look back at when that started, you know, when kind of Christianity was institutionalized and where we've come from, from where we were. Right. And if we just kind of play this out down the road with looking at from where we've come in, like Rome and the institutionalization of Christianity to where we are now with the megachurch or the typical church model. People hate when you say they're like, well, megachurts only make up a small percentage of. And I'm like, yeah, but you're still kind of following, you're playing by the same rules. Like most smaller churches are playing a smaller scale of that model. What I mean by mega church model is that there's one, you know, senior pastor, it's a hierarchy model, and he's got these board of elders around him, and it's a uh, you know, a 45 minutes sermon every Sunday, da da da da da da da da, like this whole model. It's in, you know, in this building and they collect money, and this is how they do it's all the same rules, okay? Even though there's different scales and people do different things within that model, that's what I'm talking about. But it's like, let's look at where this goes. And that's what I try to get people to think about. Because if if we just sit here and we try to like put up two versions of saying, hey, this is house church and this is traditional church, like which one's better? Then it's just us talking about our opinions. But if we get down to the root of it of like, what is what are we supposed to be doing here as the church on earth and what is our mission? And then we can look at the structures that we're operating inside of and figure out whether these are helpful or they actually hinder the mission. And so one of the main things, there's there's two main things that I can think of that Jesus has told us to do. He told us to go make disciples. Okay. You know, and then you have to ask yourself is sitting in a in a very structured passive environment, listening to the same person teach you week after week with no practical application or instruction, is that the best way that you can train people to make disciples? Probably not. Okay, now you look at Paul and he's like, hey, my goal is to present every believer mature to Christ.
SPEAKER_01:That's right.
SPEAKER_00:So now we're talking about maturity. Well, what does maturity involve? Well, when I think about my children, maturity involves me actually training them and teaching them to make decisions and do things on their own. Again, any kind of uh passive environment like that, uh, where you're just listening to lectures over and over, does not produce maturity. It produces the opposite. So now we've got these two main goals of mature believers in in character and in practical fruit, and uh people going out and multiplying and making disciples. And now we realize that the structure we're operating in is is literally working against that. So, what do we typically do to solve that problem? We try to slap more programs and band-aids on it. I'm like, can we flip and get to the point to where we realize it's not working and we need to start fresh? That terrifies people. And like, even I, when people say that, like, what are we supposed to do? Tear it all down? And even me, I want to be like, well, no, you know, you don't have to do that. But it's like, what would Jesus do? Did Jesus go into what did he do?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, he flipped the tables and then he destroyed it after his death. Like, do y'all understand God calls judgment to fall on the temple and it be obliterated?
SPEAKER_00:8070. Because well, do you know why? Do you know why it actually had to die, the system had to die? Is because he knew human beings, no matter what, would continue to operate inside of it. They would keep going back to it until they literally could not anymore. And so that's why there's this transition period between uh old covenant and new covenant, that's right, where I don't think a lot of people realize that after Jesus died and resurrected and all like we're reading in the book of Acts, guess what was still going on in the temple? Sacrifices, the old sacrificial, the sacrificial system, even though Jesus had was done, had done away with it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, what a slap in the face to Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:So Jesus dies as the once-in-all for the once-for-all sacrifice pays the way the way for believers, uh, for people to be reconciled to God. And there's still a group of people that are killing animals to be okay with God.
SPEAKER_02:It's like it's so funny though, but like if people started slaughtering animals in a mod a megachurch right now, that would be people would be like, how dare you? But you'll bring back every other tradition that was destroyed when the temple was destroyed, and be like, this is it.
SPEAKER_00:I know it's a bold statement, but how long before we get to that point?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, and that's what I mean. We were sitting over dinner with a couple the other night, and I'm sitting there and they're asking questions, and I'm like, they're like, Well, why can't it be both? And I'm like, Well, what if I told you like one day, what if God's like, I'm not gonna tolerate the mixture anymore, the blending anymore, the corruption anymore? Because here's the thing when you open up a 501c3, what ends up happening is you become a business owner. And no longer is it just the pure ministry of Jesus Christ. You now become a salesperson. Yeah. Every relationship becomes transactional. I've been there, guys. I'm not preaching from condemnation. I've been there. Everything becomes transactional. People you really probably wouldn't spend a whole lot of time with. Now you're willing to have dinner with them. So you can pitch them your business plan. It's a business plan. You have to make money somehow. You've got to bring things into your business or into your place. It's just a nonprofiting business. So you can't get rich off of it. Just open a business, work real hard, and make disciples and actually make money and don't be broke. Like, what about that model? You know what I'm saying? Like, actually have a job that can produce income, you know? But I just sit there and I look at it like everything becomes then transactional. Like I remember one time Justin and I went out to lunch with a pastor. He had a lot of questions for us. And Justin got like this specific word of knowledge. He heard that the shoulder of the waiters uh like had a sports injury. And he's like, hey, dude, like, or was it a girl? I think it was a girl. It was a girl. It was female. Yeah. Like you had the sports injury in your right shoulder, and your shoulder is bothering you right now. And she was like, How did you know? And the pastor's looking at Justin, like, yeah, how did you know? Like, you know, and I'm just, I've seen this a hundred times, Justin, do this. So I was like, this is gonna be so pretty. So this we pray for her in the name of Jesus. She gets healed right there, and she just starts crying. And the pastor pulls out a business card. I was like, Yeah, like that flopped, you know. Like, my goal is not to get her in my building so that like I can get her tithing, you know, she can hear my bad car salesman. Yeah, like that is not my goal. Like, my goal is for her in that moment to see that God sees her. And then I'm gonna share what it means to be born again with her. And if she's ready, I'll be like, hey, come meet my house with me. Like, I'll make a meal for you, I'll serve you. How about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, like it's almost like uh it would have been cool if Jesus said something like, I'll build my church.
SPEAKER_02:Come on now, but I'm telling you, it's we're well tell us about the story that happened the other day in fellowship when we started talking about what does it mean for God to build the church and the revelation you had?
SPEAKER_00:Remind me.
SPEAKER_02:We were talking about how um the Bible says for us to make disciples and he will build his church and how he literally like instrumentally moves people like bricks, the living church into spaces and places where it actually becomes a living, breathing church when we we meet friends. They've been asking for, you know, do you remember that conversation? Yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Well, it's like it's we use the opposite analogy. Yeah, we're like, oh no, it like we see what you're saying about the church, Lord, like it is people, but it needs to be a physical building and we'll put the bricks together. That's right, and we'll build the building and then we'll fill it with people. And he's like, No, the bricks are the people. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And I'll move the bricks.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I'll move them together. And so that's how the church is actually built, is if you picture people like bricks, and then he is supernaturally bringing these people together. It's how all these relationships happen, and God is using us, and then he builds relationships. So it's these relationships of disciples coming together and unifying and meeting together and using our gifts together that are is actually the church being built.
SPEAKER_02:It's a building.
SPEAKER_00:And so like this, yeah, me and you right now are two bricks that are formed together, and we're just one piece of the building that the church is. And that's completely scriptural. But it's like, it's it's like all the time we're doing the opposite, wondering, God, why, you know, and it's like I think many times he just allows us to do it. And then we look back and we're like, yeah, but he did this and he did that in there. And it's like we're so satisfied with him just doing a little bit here and there.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but it's the same thing with divorce. They're like, but divorce, I'm like, but he said from the beginning it shouldn't be that way. But he did give us a little get out of jail free card, you know, and it's like, but is that what we're looking for? Like, yeah, so yeah, I digress.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, with the I I've heard that so much. And I I sit back and I try to think, like, why are we always kicking against and trying to fight? And I've realized the answer to that. Why people fight so hard? It's because of relationships. They all know people because you don't deal with this kickback of a brand new Christian. They know people that they love and respect that are currently not only living within that institution, but their livelihood comes from it. And so they're correlating their relational trust with that person with the validity of the system they are in. That's right. I can feel it when I have conversations with people because when I we get down to the root of truth in scripture, they can't defend it. The only thing that they can defend is, but I know Bob, Pastor Joe, who Pastor So-and-so, who is an elder there. And um, and and man, it would be so hard. I've been there. Like, I remember hearing certain stuff about a certain pastor, and I'm like, no way. Because like I hear the way he preaches and I see his love for people. Like, there's no way he could be doing that behind the scenes. And it's like, listen, these are just human beings, and you've got to realize that they're being corrupted by something. So let's do our best to remove that thing that keeps corrupting from the situation. Is it gonna be perfect? Absolutely not. Like, human beings are still human beings. But um, I laugh because like I remember my little brother used to think it was human beings, like E-E-A-N-S. Yeah. Little human beings. Um, you know, human beings are gonna be human beings, and so we're still gonna make mistakes. But that is no excuse to continue using the same structure that is corrupting people and that is not leading Christians into maturity, that is not making disciples, that is not easily, it does not easily multiply, things like that. So to end this, there is a uh a lot of people that are are not leaving Jesus, but they're leaving the institutional church, and they feel the struggle of when so many people are asking them questions, having to over and over explain themselves like why are you doing this? What would be your encouragement to them who feel like they constantly have to explain why they're doing something?
SPEAKER_02:Get a new group of friends and stop explaining yourself. Get a new group of friends, like go into the highways and byways. The people who are desperately in need of Jesus, they're not gonna ask you these stupid questions. So just find a new group of friends and stop explaining yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Do you say that from experience?
SPEAKER_02:Facts.
SPEAKER_00:You spend a lot of time explaining yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Used to, not anymore.
SPEAKER_00:You finally get to this point where you're like, oh my goodness. If I explain myself a hundred times, then finally everyone's gonna be like, oh, I see where you're coming from now. No.
SPEAKER_02:People who want to misunderstand you, they misunderstand you before you even spoke.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:People who genuinely are there to hear and learn, they'll ask questions and they won't walk away offended.
SPEAKER_00:You can tell immediately. You can tell. Like if they're actually there to hear you out.
SPEAKER_02:If I sniff even like an ounce of I'm trying to explain myself or defend myself, I'll be like, you're not my audience. Love you mean, have a good day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I will tell you the the the hardest lesson to learn is when you begin to open up your heart and share with people of what God is doing in your life. And even when it's in like transitioning you out into a new season outside the walls of the church, there are going to be people that will trample that and it will be.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's why the Bible says don't give your pearls to swine.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:You know, sometimes swines can look like Christians if they don't understand what you're doing. So don't let them, don't give them what revelation God's giving you if they're just going to trample on it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, be led by the Spirit in those conversations and just realize sometimes it's better just to say nothing at all. Yeah. And just let it ride. And I would say let the fruit speak for itself. Because years later, when you're still walking successfully with Christ, bearing fruit and multiplying and having, you know, God is still working in your life, let that speak as opposed to your explanation that they didn't want to hear in the first place. So that's that. That's all about stepping out of the institutional church. Join us next time where we're gonna Welcome to season two.
SPEAKER_02:It's gonna be spicy.
SPEAKER_00:Season two. We're gonna talk about next time what is church. Yeah. What is this thing that we're if this is what it's not, what is it? And how do we step into that life? So we'll see you in the next episode. So good.