reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
Exposing The Church’s SILENT Struggle with P*rn | #reChurch Ep. 17
The statistics of p*rn addiction in and outside the Church are staggering. Even among pastors and leaders. Today we dive into this much needed conversation with Sathiya Sam founder of DeepClean to expose the epidemic were facing and most importantly how we can overcome it.
Sathiya has helped guide over 10,000 men through freedom to become better husbands, fathers and most importantly men of God!
Connect with Sathiya:
https://www.sathiyasam.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sathiyamesam
Get a FREE copy of his book: https://www.sathiyasam.com/books
✅ Follow Justin:
https://www.instagram.com/justin.knoop
https://www.youtube.com/@reChurchPodcast
There's so much research now that actually shows negatively rewires your brain. It reduces relationship quality. It increases your chance of divorce and it's certainly a lot easier talking about it now than it was a few years ago. It doesn't fall into normal addiction models and a lot of that research is social scientists that were trying to understand.
Speaker 2:With your own addiction. You said there was a lot of ways that you went and tried to get help first. That didn't work. Do you remember the point where you hit, where you're like all right, this is a major problem I was 20 years old.
Speaker 1:I was very high, achieving academically, skipped a grade and went straight into university. I was really a new christian. I grew up in church, but this was sort of the stage of my life where I start to own my faith and I decided I was going to commit my life to jesus. I knew that with that commitment I had to clean up my lifestyle. I knew that means I couldn't drink on the weekends or if I was going to drink I had to be responsibly. I had to clean up my language and I had to stop watching. The first two were easy, but I probably went about three days without watching and I remember just thinking how do you guys help people beyond recovery if that makes?
Speaker 1:sense Definitely Very good question.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the ReChurch podcast. If you're tired of business as usual Christianity and you're ready to live just like Jesus, you found yourself in the right place. Today we're actually gonna talk about a topic that I believe, and I think many others believe, is not discussed enough in the church. We're gonna get into why it's not discussed a lot in the church and then also what we can do to really help people overcome this. So today I've got a great friend with me. Today I've got Sathya. Sathya has an amazing testimony. He struggled with our topic today, which is pornography. He struggled with it for 15 years, and the cool thing about Sathya is is he didn't just break free from it himself. He has now dedicated his life to helping others break free from this horrible addiction. So, uh, cynthia, thanks for being with us today.
Speaker 1:It's an honor to be here, man.
Speaker 2:Thanks for having me excited all the way from Canada.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's go yeah.
Speaker 2:How's the? Uh? How's the weather in Canada?
Speaker 1:right now Really bad, really bad. Now I will say I actually spent my winters in Jamaica cause my wife is Jamaican, yeah, and so I came here from Jamaica. So I actually you, because my wife is Jamaican and so I came here from Jamaica. So I actually, you know, it's actually colder here in Texas than it is in Jamaica Interesting, yeah, so I made a sacrifice to be here. But after this I go back to Canada and I think it's still going to be cold there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally. I've been to Canada multiple times. I don't know if you knew, but I'm from Buffalo, new.
Speaker 1:Oh, so I'm 20 minutes just on the other side of that border. Yeah, 45 minute drive to Buffalo, gotcha In Toronto. Uh, yeah, st Catherine's is the city. Okay, yeah, just outside of Niagara Falls. Awesome, awesome, yeah, so cool.
Speaker 2:So cool? Um so, yeah, so jumping right in. Um, why do you think number one, why do you think this is is is a topic that is typically steered clear of. You don't hear a lot of pastors, a lot of leaders, really a lot of people in general, having this discussion. It seems to be something that people want to keep behind closed doors, but yet we know that a lot of people struggle with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I mean, okay, I'm a specialist in pornography addiction. You hear the word addiction and you know you think alcohol, gambling, drugs, those are all like socially accepted addictions, right. And then pornography kind of falls in this weird category where people are like, oh, can you really be addicted to it? I mean, even amongst researchers and academics there's a lot of contention around is it really legitimate? So there's already that piece of it where, like, even on a social level, if we get outside of the church, there's some question marks around it. But it is in the scope of addiction and people generally don't.
Speaker 1:We don't talk about addiction unless it's in the right environment, right, the right context. But then pornography is also in the umbrella category of sexuality and there are certain topics in today's day and age, as we know, that you can talk about very openly in the category of sexuality. But pornography is incredibly private, it's very personal and especially once we get into the church it really the only thing you ever hear about pornography is don't watch it, it's bad for you. So I think, I think that because it's it's sexual and it's personal and it's a subject that is already uncomfortable for a lot of believers to discuss. Plus, you have the some of the stigmatization around addiction and stuff. It just makes it. It's just buried like eight layers deep in any conversation in a typical church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause you made me think when you said that. I was like well, honestly, when you look at mainstream social media, I mean there really is an argument of whether or not it's a bad thing, or? Not have, you have you run into with, with what you do in the or not? Have you, have you run into with, with what you do in the, in the people that you help, um having to convince people, or have you had a lot of conversations in past podcasts and stuff that you've done just trying to?
Speaker 1:convince people that it's not a good thing. Yeah, very, very much. So I think that a lot of people are oblivious. Even people in the church don't really realize how bad pornography is. They kind of get like, okay, sex is for marriage and you know I can't have affairs, but you know pornography like that's just me doing my own thing, what's the big deal? So we get that a lot and then obviously, once you get outside of the four walls of the church, we get a lot of pushback or just people not understanding. And the reality is so.
Speaker 1:Before I was a pastor for 10 years, before I became a pastor, I was a university researcher. So that's part of my mandate is trying to infuse science and scripture together to really bring proper truth to the subject. And there's so much research now that actually shows porn negatively rewires your brain, it reduces relationship quality, it increases your chance of divorce. I mean there's so much research now. So I think people are starting to wake up to it a lot more and it's certainly a lot easier talking about it now than it was a few years ago.
Speaker 1:But there is still a lot of contention around like it doesn't fall into normal addiction models, it's just it's in kind of the wild, wild west a little bit. So I think that's why people are still trying to figure it out. But I think it's the modern day cigarette. You know, I think right now everyone's like, yeah, porn doesn't seem to be that bad. And you know, some people they do it and they spice up their sex life and it's great, um. But I think as more of the research starts to come out, I think people are going to realize, no, this stuff kills you, it kills your soul and it's really not not worth it. And that's that's the world that I'm kind of dreaming and trying to pioneer a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's amazing and that's interesting too. I also didn't think of it from that perspective, but, um, I guess it's got to be. People have to be waking up to the seriousness of it if they're actually, you know, doing studies and there's actually, you know, in-depth research on it to figure out how this actually affects us yeah uh, even if you're not coming from a faith background, but like, all right, how does this, how does it actually affect your brain and yes in relationships and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So and a lot of that research is social scientists that we're trying to understand the impacts of tech on youth. That's kind of how it started because, you know, we're sort of like 10-15 years into the tech revolution with social media and smart devices and all that, and in their research, just pornography just kept coming up again and again because exposure is happening at such a young age. Yeah, guys are watching it a lot, getting addicted and then starting their careers. Now we have kind of the first generation that are starting their careers addicted to porn, you know, and they don't know what to do with it. So they weren't even looking for it but they found it along the way, because you can't have the conversation around tech addiction or social media addiction without also talking about pornography. It's just, it's it's embedded in that set of sorry, embedded in that set of behaviors.
Speaker 2:What like off the top of your head, what are some, some statistics that probably most people watching right now would would be like oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:So, uh, the porn industry generates more revenue than the NBA, the NFL and major league baseball combined. Um, it gets more traffic. Uh, sorry, the top three porn sites get more traffic than Twitter, amazon and Netflix combined. So we're talking about like billions, billions of users monthly, and that's really just maybe the top three porn sites, top five porn sites.
Speaker 1:Once you kind of get into society, you find that by the time somebody is 10, 11 years old, they've probably been exposed to pornography. Some studies say it's as young as eight years old, 40, no, sorry, let me get the stat right 25% of men under the age of 40 report issues with erectile dysfunction now, and that might, that might seem like a little bit out of nowhere, but in 2001, it was 5%. So we've seen a 5X increase in erectile dysfunction. And pornography, I believe, is the main cause of this. Because pornography is hardwiring the brains of young boys in this instance, but young girls as well. It's hardwiring them to experience unnatural levels of stimulation, to experience arousal. And when you get exposed to this at a young age, by the time you start having sexual experiences, your body just doesn't respond, because an interaction with a real person is not nearly as stimulating as what they've been watching online for maybe a decade.
Speaker 2:Almost desensitized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's actually. That's the neurological term is that they're desensitized. So you see that happen. 56% of divorces cite the partner's porn use as one of the primary reasons. So it's actually really wrapped up in the divorce stats as well.
Speaker 1:And I think probably the most interesting or the most important of all is that when people watch pornography this is if we're going to get outside of the church I have some church stats as well but outside of the church, when people watch pornography, they initially report an increase in relationship satisfaction, sexual satisfaction and all that. But the longer that you follow these couples, the greater the risks are of divorce, the lower the relationship quality is and everything else. So it really just destroys you on all fronts. All of the viewership stats outside, which is about I think it's about 68% of men and about 34, 35% of women that are watching pornography with some regularity pretty much identical in the church, not really any difference. 9% of all local churches have something to offer their congregants in this area. So you're talking about, like a silent epidemic, people screaming for help, people losing marriages over it, people losing jobs. We have a lot of our clients, unfortunately, that have lost work and that kind of stuff over it and just nowhere to turn. You know no one's offering the right help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what you may have partially answered my next question, but that's why I was going to ask you why. Why are the statistics the same inside and outside of the church?
Speaker 1:I mean definitely, definitely it's. The church isn't offering the help. I think that's the first thing. But the second thing is actually the churches aren't even preaching on it, like like I know. I mean, you went to local church for a long time. I was a local church pastor for 10 plus years. How many times did you hear somebody from the pulpit talking about pornography? Right, almost never. So. So if you're not talking about it on a on a Sunday morning, or you're not talking about it when you're not talking about it on a Sunday morning, or you're not talking about it when you're gathered, then people aren't going to do anything about it. They might even they still maybe know it's wrong, they wish they could do something, but you're not giving them the permission.
Speaker 1:And I think, if I can go one layer deeper on that, I was a pastor, I'm a fourth generation pastor, so dad, grandpa and great grandpa all pastors as well.
Speaker 1:And as pastors, our responsibility is to lead our sheep through the different arenas of life. You know, there's a part of the field called finances, there's one called grace and mercy, there's one called relationships, and it's our job to be able to steer our congregations through these different pastors of the field, and somewhere in the field there's a pastor called sexual integrity, and most pastors can't go there with their sheep because they don't have access to it themselves, like the stats among pastors that are struggling is. It's abysmal, you know, it's 50% plus, depending on the survey With youth pastors, you're talking 60, 70% of them are struggling with pornography and so they don't have any authority in this area. They don't know how to break free themselves, so they can't help other people do it in their hearts. I'm sure they want to, but we don't know how to break free themselves, so they can't help other people do it In their hearts. I'm sure they want to, but we don't have the tools, we don't have the keys, we don't have the access that we need to actually lead people into freedom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we talked about this a little bit off camera On this podcast. People who have watched multiple of our episodes know that we generally critique some of that structure, that hierarchical structure that has been built up because you have a person that's been put in a position and they're looked at in a certain way, they're viewed in a certain way. So, um whether or not they've put themselves there or other people have put them there they're on a pedestal.
Speaker 2:They feel like they have this standard to meet. And now you're saying that if there's such a high percentage of these pastors and leaders that are struggling with this behind closed doors, it seems like there's a lot more risk for them to step out and talk about their struggles with that. Um, we've seen, obviously most people are aware of just. It seems like every year there's more and more people being exposed, whether or not that's just because we have more coverage of it, or or there's actually a you know that's an increasing number. Um, it's wild and has detrimental effects. Um, how do you think I mean, do you think it's the path forward for the lack of help in the church is just adding new programs to the church, or is it some kind of overhaul that needs to happen with the way that we do things in the church?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it's systemic for sure, like we could have this conversation. Instead of pornography, it could be about a bunch of different topics that you know the church is either not talking about, the leaders aren't walking in it and, like you said, with the current structure, the leaders the leaders are kind of the gatekeepers, right, yeah, um. So I think there's a systemic issue and I do think but I really do think it starts with the leaders. Now, whether a leader is a pastor of a local church or whether a leader is just somebody who has some authority in a community.
Speaker 1:You know, when I think about what we do at Deep Clean helping guys quit pornography I'm dreaming about them becoming staples in their community that are saying, hey, I'm like they're modeling sexual integrity, they have nothing to hide behind closed doors because they got cleaned up and they're walking in integrity. And I think until we have that happening, we're going to just repeat our cycles and keep running into these issues. And, like you're saying, the system is a huge problem because it is creating these pastors who can't live by the standards and when they fall short, it's not just that they fall short and they lose their empires, but they leave a huge wake behind of people who are betrayed, who are hurt, and we have a lot of people in our client group that are church hurt, you know, and sometimes it's over this issue or sometimes it's over other things, but I think we need a completely new idea of what church looks like as well. I think it's a huge part of the solution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and so you said you know, you believe that that it is something that needs. You know, leaders obviously need to impact because they've gotten influence over people, but would you say it's, it's a balanced thing of of. We need to help individuals on a one-on-one basis or we need to. I guess maybe you're you're trying to to do both, or what is your? What is your main way of actually helping such a large problem?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. So we probably need to scale back a little bit before we answer that question. The typical answers in the church with this problem are get an internet filter, you know. Install covenant eyes, pray more about it, you know, depending on where you fall in your theology, get some deliverance ministry, you know it. That's kind of been the extent of what we're providing when you install an internet filter on your device. That's sort of the equivalent of running over a weed with a lawnmower. Yeah, so the weed is temporarily gone and everything looks fine, but as long as the roots are there, that weed is going to grow back one way or the other. And it's funny because if you look at all the teachings in scripture around sexual sin and lust, you know Jesus said in Matthew 5, you've heard it said do not commit adultery. I say, if you look at a woman with lustful intent, you've committed adultery in your heart. So it's funny that we would offer people an internet filter as a solution when Jesus is saying actually, if you really want to tackle this subject, you got to get to the heart of the matter. So I think that's the first big shift, that again, whether you're in a local church, whether it's a home group, whether it's you're outside of the church, the ultimate solution is always going to be in the heart. This is a heart based issue and it requires a heart based solution. So it's got to start there and I think that's that's sort of is what has segued me into my work is.
Speaker 1:For three years I was I was struggling for 15 years altogether when I really decided to quit porn. For three years I had the internet filters, I went to the accountability groups, I had prayer partners, I had it all put in place and I was just trying to basically fight the urge every single day. You know, like no real biblical freedom. And the last 18 months of my struggle, where I actually start to gain traction, was all because I was getting to the roots, I was getting to the heart of the matter and I was starting to be transformed from the inside. And then, naturally, my behavior started to change.
Speaker 1:So I don't, I don't need a covenant eyes, I don't wake up thinking, man, I'm one bad decision away from fumbling again Like I have legitimate freedom because my heart's been changed and I think that's the gospel, that's what the Bible is really talking about in this area. So I think, just to kind of contextualize, like, if you're going to pursue freedom, the first thing is it's about the roots, and if you take care of the roots then the fruit will take care of itself. That's the first thing. I think the um, the other thing you were just touching on, like you're talking about, you know communities and one-on-one and what it looks like, the the research side of it, which is also a very biblical concept, but the research.
Speaker 1:If I could summarize all the addiction research of the last 20 years, it would be this the opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it's connection. And so, instead of trying to manipulate and curb your behaviors, focus on connection, because the healthier your connections are, the more meaning you find in your relationships, the more full your heart is, and a satisfied heart rarely wanders.
Speaker 2:So you're talking about relationships in general, so not just like a husband and wife or something like that. So connection in all relationships, no way beyond that.
Speaker 1:Way beyond that. Yeah, in fact, that adage came from. There's this viral Ted talk. Like 10 years ago they talked about Rat Park. Have you ever heard about this before? Okay, all right.
Speaker 1:So basically, rat Park is, you know, they put a bunch of rats in a cage. There's two bottles. One bottle is water, the other bottle is water laced with cocaine and, surprise, surprise, the rats all get addicted to the cocaine. So then experiment number two is they have rat park. So this is a different kind of terrarium. It's got, you know, rat wheels and tunnels and it's got cheeses and all kinds of stuff, and they can play with each other and they can mate with each other. And you know, it's like rat paradise. And the same bottles are still there the water bottle and the cocaine lace bottle. And what they found is that when rats were in this environment where they could have meaningful interactions with other rats and really have a purposeful life, even though the cocaine was there, almost none of them touched it. And it's basically the same thing for humans.
Speaker 1:You know, we're in the digital age, where we're more isolated, we're a lot lonelier than we've ever been, and pornography and sexual sin is all the more isolating because of what we talked about, the shame that people experience.
Speaker 1:It keeps them stifled, it keeps them hidden, and all of that basically cuts us off from the very thing that we need to actually experience lasting freedom, which is connection, just relationships with one another. And so, you know, in our environment, like if you work with us, there's always a communal element. We have an online community, we do group coaching and then in our higher tiers, we're going to do one-on-one coaching as well. So we offer a little bit of all of it, but the baseline of it is connection. You got to start building relationships because that's what's actually going to change your heart. That's the medium, the, the, the medium that it happens along. And, um, you know, there's tons of practical tools and, um, we're very research based on what we do and very biblically based as well. All that stuff matters, but connections, sort of the environment, it happens in Cause that's the way God designed us to have our hearts changed.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's so cool. Um, I can think of so many questions, but take me back to to to your addiction. So I I struggled long time with with addiction, but more so to like drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. I think, and I think that just consumed most of my addiction like most of my energy and stuff was still covering up a lot of you know personal issues and issues with you know from childhood and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But I'm really connecting with what you're saying, because it was like when I, when I came to Christ, when I gave my life to Christ, it wasn't like those addictions all just magically went away.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But as I learned kind of who I was and began to gain purpose in my life, it was like those things were less and less important.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Um, and, and I found so much satisfaction in now what God was doing through me, so I'm just really making sense what you're saying.
Speaker 2:Um, but with your own addiction, uh, was there a point where you lived where you thought nothing was wrong with it, or a point what was the point of, where you actually you know you said there was a lot of ways that you went and tried to get help first that didn't work. You remember the point where you hit, where you're like all right, this is a major problem. This is was there something happened where you're like this is majorly affecting my life in a negative way?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can tell you the exact moment. So I was 20 years old, I had just graduated with my honors degree, so I was very high, achieving academically, skipped a grade and went straight into university. I had my degree, I just wrapped up my thesis and I was really a new Christian. I grew up in church, but this was sort of the stage of my life where I started to own my faith and Christian. I grew up in church, but this was sort of the stage of my life where I started to own my faith and I decided I was going to commit my life to Jesus and I knew that with that commitment, I had to clean up my lifestyle. I knew that means I couldn't drink on the weekends, or if I was going to drink, I had to be responsibly, had to clean up my language and I had to stop watching porn.
Speaker 1:The first two were easy, you know, not a big deal, they didn't have a legitimate stronghold in my life, but I probably went about three days without watching porn and I remember just thinking, oh, this is usually like I can kind of willpower myself through anything. You know, that was kind of weird. So I thought, okay, well, now I'm really focused, now I'm going to really, you know, go after it. And I went again. I went a few days, I went a week and I just I I kind of just reached the end of my willpower. And I think that's when I realized this is a major problem. And at the time there wasn't a lot of like information about pornography, edition especially. But any information I did find it was like you know, if you plan your days around it, I was like, yeah, I do that If you can't go, you know, more than a couple of days without it. Like I was just trying to check off the criteria where I realized, wow, this is. I had no idea the extent of just how deep the hooks were in my heart.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, early twenties, when it all happened, Okay, and then from there moving, from like, okay, I'm trying all things, cause I feel like there's probably a lot of people, even people listening that are in that phase of their life. They're using the filters, the restrictions. They're basically using their willpower until they, you know, relapse and then they're in this, in this endless cycle. You know you talked about getting to the root. What does that look like Practically?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Moving from the flesh attempts to fix something.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Into that phase.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really good question. So I would say good recovery addresses the roots in three areas the eyes, the heart and the mind. And so when someone works with us like that's the deep clean system, we literally just go through those three pillars. The eyes are really all about building self-awareness. So you talked about you know your addiction history. I'm sure at some point along the way you realized, okay, the reason that I'm so drawn to you know, drugs, alcohol, whatever it is is it's allowing you to cope with something you know, something that's going on, uncomfortable feelings or trauma from your past or you know whatever. So with a lot of our clients, a lot of the conversation on pornography is you know, I'm a dude, I got needs, I watch porn. You know that's the extent of what they can articulate. But sexuality is incredibly multifaceted. It's way more than just a physical drive or a desire. There's emotional things going on, there's psychological things. So when we talk about the eyes, it's really about understanding what's going on on an internal level, specifically labeling emotions and defining thoughts. So that's kind of where we start. It's the skill building of understanding the inner life and it's not about game like it. For the guys that are watching it's not super touchy feely. It doesn't have to be that way. But you have to have an understanding that when you're watching pornography with some kind of regularity there's a reason for it and until you know that reason you are completely powerless to do anything about it. So that's what the eyes is all about. It's gaining that awareness of what's the reason. What is it actually offering me?
Speaker 1:Phase two, the heart. That's really more about addressing trauma, addressing your upbringing, early sexual experiences. A lot of those are very formative and they kind of shape the sexual experiences we have as adults. And my own experience not really a sexual experience, but one of the things I realized in my healing journey is I had an incredible mom, but she was a little bit like emotionally distant, I would say, not a super warm personality, not super affectionate, you know, took care of all my kind of primal needs as a kid, but not a lot of an emotional connection and as a result, I was chasing girls and watching pornography. Now that took me like three years to articulate, you know, like that's. That's the workout, that's the fruit of a lot of work. But being able to label that uh, forgive my mom, release her, uh was incredibly transformative for me and that's the kind of stuff. This is where I would say like we really see clients start to change is when they can understand what's going on in their past, how it contributed and some of those deeper unresolved matters of the heart.
Speaker 1:And then the third one is the mind, and I would say another, more Christianese term for it would be identity. And the basic premise there is you cannot outbehave your beliefs. So as long as you, if you believe like I'm a pervert, I struggle with sexual sin, I'm a pervert. As long as you believe that you're a pervert, you will continue in some sort of sexual sin, because it's your identity. You cannot behave outside of that identity that you've developed. So this is all about just reconstructing a real Christ-like, biblically based identity that is completely apart from your performance, apart from your behavior. It's anchored in the mercy and the grace of God. But that's, this is the launching pad into the life of freedom, because once you really understand your identity, then the world's your oyster. You know, you can, you can do whatever you want, and this is where people really start to rebuild their new life. So that's, that's kind of the process we'll walk somebody through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so cool as you're explaining that. I'm thinking, you know, when you're talking about biblical principles like that, you're just breaking it down even further. I'm thinking of so many scriptures that go through my mind, uh, about, you know, renewing the mind and captivating thoughts and and, uh, the truth setting you free and like all of these things you know, go to that identification. You're basically getting to the root of the lie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly Um understanding the depth of the decisions that you've made in the past and why you maybe made those decisions, or just at least recognizing you know you can't change anything about what somebody did to you. I'm sure you have. You know hundreds and hundreds of different stories from different people of have experienced different things, that are past different traumas, but they've all led to a similar path.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm thinking of that and how a biblical principle like this. It can apply in many different things. Definitely it's the roadmap to freedom in a lot of different areas.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's really cool. So how would you say it's different? Because I'm seeing the similarities when it comes to addictions or even other things we struggle with as believers especially, but how would you say it's different in the realm of, of sexual?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so compared to alcohol or drugs or that kind of thing. Yeah, so this is this is maybe the most fascinating part about this very counter-cultural to what the church will tell you. So there was this really popular book like 20 years ago called every man's Battle. I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but the basic premise was whatever is in you that's sexual as a man, you just have to cut it off, just suppress it, ignore it, stuff it, stifle it, and then when you get married, your life will be daisies and roses. So that was sort of the general messaging of the book and what everything basically has revealed in addiction research and you know, we've helped 1000 plus guys quit pornography now and what we've discovered is the nature of what you consume, the kind of content you watch when you watch it. All of the details around your consumption are actually clues into your solution.
Speaker 1:So I mentioned the situation with my mom right, and that was something that was going on underneath the surface, something that you wouldn't expect to be really tied into a pornography addiction or sexual sin. If you were to look at the data around the top keywords on the main porn sites over the last 10 years, top five is always mom content, step mom. There's a term called MILF, you know it's all that kind of mom-related content Always top five. It mom content, stepmom. There's a term called milf, you know it's all that kind of mom related content always top five, it's always there. And it's because my story is not unique the, the dynamic with the mom, the, the broken relationship, that disconnection. And what people don't realize is when they act out sexually they're actually often acting out of their trauma, out of their brokenness, out of their pain, and so traditionally, like you're taught, just ignore the temptation, suppress it, find something better to do. But what we actually do is we want to get in there, we want to understand, like, what are you watching and why do you watch it and what's interesting about it to you. Because the better we can understand what you're trying to get out of the content, the more clues it leads us into the surface or, sorry, the things that are more underneath the surface. And I think that's a little bit different than alcohol. Like you can't look at how somebody is consuming alcohol or drugs necessarily, and look at the substance itself and say, oh, you're addicted to alcohol, you have a problem with your mom, you know, like the correlation is not there. The same way and I think that's a really unique part of sexual sin and pornography addiction is there's clues embedded into the behavior that, if you extract them, you know, if you have the right guidance, you can extract them and get very obvious insights into your solution as well.
Speaker 1:I'll give you another example. One thing that comes up a lot is fantasy. So this is a very common question, right? So it's like okay, I get the porn things bad. Then we start talking about masturbation. People always get upset when we kind of speak against masturbation, but generally, like I haven't really found a good argument for it, I'll put it that way Um, and then people say, but what if I am doing it while I fantasize about my wife? And, um, we basically say it doesn't matter whether you're making an object of a porn star or your wife. Like you're fantasizing about it, you're, you're making an object of it. That's the problem. But, um, we, I actually just did a master class with my clients about deconstructing your fantasies. And um, sorry, not deconstructing. Um, what's the what's the word?
Speaker 1:um, you know, breaking it down like analyzing about yeah yeah, we had a word for it but I forget what it is now. But yeah, analyzing your fantasies, and the whole premise was, if you, if you start to pay attention to what you fantasize about sexually, it will tell you a lot about the unmet needs of your heart. And, um, one thing that comes out again and again and again is this need for control. So a lot of guys, a lot of their fantasies are, you know they're, they're in a more of a domineering kind of position or it's again, it depends on the details of it, but there's always this sense of control and domination and all that kind of stuff. So I, one particular client in this call, you know he was, he was sharing some specifics and we were, we were talking it through and, um, and I told him, I asked him hey, when was the last time you felt this way? You know, this subject of control was coming up, when was the last time you felt like tempted to fantasize? And he's like oh, it was just a couple of days ago.
Speaker 1:I was in a meeting and there's this guy. He always kind of talks down to me. I always feel like I'm small around him and my boss, who's usually like really good, I have a great relationship with him. My boss was kind of just brushing me off so I just I felt really small in the conversation. So I said, okay, what else did you feel? And he's like, well, I kind of felt powerless because I was trying to talk and they were ignoring me.
Speaker 1:So I said, okay, so you felt powerless, and then you kind of contrived this fantasy where you were in control and you had the power. And he's like, yes, okay, got it. So I said so the next time that you feel tempted to fantasize especially those kinds of fantasies where you're in control, you're feeling powerful let that just be a warning light, like a light on a dashboard, like, hey, dude, you feel powerless about something, and if you can identify what you feel powerless about and you can get power back into that situation, the fantasies will go away. You won't even be tempted to fantasize. So again, that's just a great example of we'd be tempted to just ignore it, like, oh, did you have that fantasy? Did? The next time you feel tempted, just go take a cold shower?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, like we try to kind of cut it off where I'm kind of like dude, let's pay attention to it, because I think if we can get in there enough, we can get some really valuable insights that can actually craft your solution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's good. I'm thinking, as you're speaking, to my wife and I over the past few years have done a lot of like intense spiritual warfare, deliverance and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But yes you'll see some people that will just jump in and just try and, like you know, cast demons out or whatever. Yeah, but over some time we realized that sitting down with the person for two hours, three hours, and then praying makes the actual prayer process much easier. Um, and what you're saying is like just so in line with even what we've experienced, and that is that, um, when you actually, you know are are exposing the roots of the issue and listening, it's almost we cause. It's funny Cause we explained it to people just like this. It's like when, when I'm asking you questions, um, and you're telling me your experiences and what you're going through, it's almost like a doctor listening to symptoms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it would be like if you went into the doctor's office and they're like hey doc. And you're like, oh, you've got cancer.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And they're like I didn't, and that's what I think. A lot of uh, you see, a lot of the answers are just like well, just stop doing this or change this as these generic slap on band-aids. So it's so cool. You're almost saying that like there's a little bit of a, a different of of of a solution, or roadmap, if you will, uh, based on the symptoms of the person. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 1:100%. Yeah, there's nuances to the situation that actually give you clues into your solution. And so I love what you said about the deliverance thing too, because I'm a big believer in deliverance and I think, for what we do, when we're talking about, like cleaning up the heart and transforming the heart, I really do believe all of our clients need to go through deliverance. We do deliverance at the very end for all the reasons that you just mentioned. Yes, and an we do deliverance at the very end for all the reasons that you just mentioned, and an additional reason. So Abraham Lincoln said if I have five hours to chop down a tree, I'll spend the first four hours sharpening the axe. And so I really believe that the scripture suggests that if you're going to do casting out demons, you've got to make sure the person's heart is in order that it can actually steward the deliverance, Because I know lots of stories. In fact, we've had lots of clients who had the deliverance minister pray for them. They got set free and then 30 days later they're struggling again. And it's not because that person didn't have an anointing that if that person didn't have an anointing, they would have never had deliverance in the first place. The issue was the heart. There wasn't the maturity to actually steward the breakthrough.
Speaker 1:You know, my pastor says a breakthrough without a follow-through is a moment without momentum. And I think it's the same thing. We get so excited to deliver people and give that breakthrough moment, but we don't have any follow-through, we don't have anything that actually gives them longevity in their deliverance. So we do deliverance at the very end because we figure by the time you've been with us for about four months, you've gone through our three pillars. You know the eyes, the heart, the mind. There's a lot of maturity, there's a lot of stability and then we can just cast it out. It's a way easier, like you said, Um, and then we know that the chances of it lasting long-term are way, way higher.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you said, a breakthrough without a follow-through is a moment without momentum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, I just wanted to say that, yeah, yeah, that's always stuck with me, you know. Yeah, I think it kind of gets across.
Speaker 2:And you're so right. Yeah, you, you want to capture that momentum because that is something that you run into a lot, even with um ministry and deliverance ministry and stuff like that People coming back for the same issues, same issues and you realize after a while you're like maybe you prayed with someone for hours and you know, in in authority, got rid of that thing.
Speaker 2:But, um, cause, a lot of people would give us trouble when we talk about different deliverance tactics and the way that we do things. They're like, well, you don't need to do that, you just cast the thing out in Jesus name and and we would actually, um, you know, pinpoint by either asking the, the Holy spirit, for discernment of what we're dealing with, or or sometimes, uh, the authority, where the, the demon, actually speaks out or calls out you know what it's operating in and its name, if you will, but usually his name is just its function and I tell people I'm like the benefit of that is if the person actually knows what they're dealing with and how the enemy is attacking them then, they can better be prepared to actually walk that freedom out and fight it then they can better be prepared to actually walk that freedom out and fight it.
Speaker 2:So going back to knowing the truth, and the truth will set you free. It's just interesting how Jesus you know prior to Jesus. It's funny you read the Old Testament. You just never see, obviously, a lot in the realm of deliverance as you saw, with Jesus walking around as you do in the Old Testament.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:Jesus is walking around, literally exposing all of the devil's tactics, everything, and it's just all out there. And that was the one ministry that they were like where does this authority come from? We've never seen a teaching like this. And it's because the enemy had remained hidden, and that's what I'm getting to is like his main tactic is to remain hidden, to remain quiet, to normalize it to make you think that a lot of the things spiritually going on with you are part of your personality or that's just who you are.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure you probably deal with a lot of mindsets like that, with people that just just think they think they're stuck because they think that's it's, it's part of who they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and it's become so familiar that it's they don't. They don't know life apart from it. I mean, we, we had a client. He was 70 years old. He, in his this is his words I had an affair every single opportunity that I got, for, you know, five decades, he'd been married 50 years addicted to pornography, addicted to sex, and he actually came with.
Speaker 1:He's a great example of somebody who, when he got, finally got caught. You know, he's 68 years old and from the moment he got caught he stopped. So he stopped porn cold turkey. He stopped having sex and having affairs and all that kind of stuff, cold turkey. And two years into his sobriety journey, he comes to us and he's like, I haven't watched in two years but I'm miserable, I'm freaking miserable, like I hate my life. I almost wish I was addicted to sex again because, like, I have nothing in my life. So a great example of what happens when you chase sobriety instead of actual freedom of the heart. That's good. And as he um, as he started to work with us, like, as he's starting to go through this process. I'm forgetting what you mentioned now, but I'm gonna finish the story. Hopefully it'll tie back in um, but you know, as he's starting to go through this process. I'm forgetting what you mentioned now, but I'm going to finish the story. Hopefully it'll tie back in, um, but you know, as he's starting to go, he's just.
Speaker 1:He was such a good example of somebody who, at 70 years old he's still turning his life completely around and it's, it's not, it's not too late for anybody, like you know. I think people, people are listening. This is where I was going to go with this. People are probably going to listen and watch this and say, yeah, but you don't know what I've done, you don't know how long I've struggled. I mean this guy, this guy did not know a life, apart from any kind of addiction, because it had started so young and he was now in his latter years and it was so familiar and he got free. He got, he got legitimate freedom.
Speaker 1:This guy, by the end of the program we talked about self-awareness, right, that's our first pillar. So learning to label emotions, articulate thoughts, all that kind of stuff. He was trying to have like vulnerable conversations with his mother-in-law. That was like the extent that he had embraced it too. You know, he was so unashamed about his life and his heart and his struggle, but also his victory and his success, and so I think it's one of the biggest lies If the enemy can't keep you hidden, he'll just keep you stuck. You know he'll keep you stuck, convinced like no, this is your thorn in the flesh, this is the thing that you're just going to struggle with. No, everybody else can get free, but you can't. And it's a lie straight from the pit of hell, because whether you're 17 years old or you're 70, like Jesus can set you free, you can change your heart, and in less time than you think.
Speaker 2:That's so amazing and that's one thing that I watched my wife go through as well, in watching her share her testimony, also ministering to other women and us ministering together is you. You can watch people and see how free they are from their past and how they talk about it. Yeah, um, you almost feel like I almost feel detached in a way from it, not in a weird way like it's stuffed, but in a way like that's it's so far gone for me that you can almost speak, speak about it without even like you know anything and people are like Whoa, like how can you talk about what you've gone through like that, with such clarity and such freedom?
Speaker 2:And it's because it's not who I am anymore. Yeah, it's like a different person. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's the whole point of the roots-based approach. If you do it right, that should be. The byproduct is you look at pictures of your past, you think about, you hear the stories from back in the day and they just feel like that. They feel like stories from back in the day. You know they're. They're so far removed and I think a lot of the addiction models that even exist are not like that.
Speaker 1:You know, I I interviewed on a platform uh, he's one of the most respected people in the sex addiction space and he was reading my inner, uh, my, my biography for the interview and the biographies. You know, cynthia Sam is a recovered porn addict and he said, oh, he said I actually can't, I can't read that, I don't agree with that. And I said, oh, um, like what do you mean? And he said, well, I don't believe it's possible to be recovered. I believe that once you're in recovery, you're always in recovery. You always have to.
Speaker 1:You know, like there's there's no permanence. And I, you know I mean I was respectful the world's leaders in this subject and he doesn't believe that you could actually be completely set free from it. He believes like you're always kind of one step removed. So I think this is where, like even the addiction models that were actually originally like AA and 12 step. Those are from. Those came from the Bible. Those are people that were Bible believing that came up with it. I'd like to see us kind of get back to that, because to me that's that's legitimate freedom is yeah, you don't recognize.
Speaker 1:You have this lingering like I've just expanded my jail cell, so now I've got more you know, a little bit more room to walk around out of that jail cell and say goodbye to it. That's so good yeah.
Speaker 2:One thing, a question that popped up in my mind too, and I don't know if you have an answer for this or not, but it seems like you deal a lot with recovery. So people that are already experiencing that you know addiction and trying to break free from it Do you have any advice for like parents like me, or parents out there that have young children and they're looking to like? Hey, I want to be proactive.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I'm saying and I know what?
Speaker 2:the world brings and social media and all that stuff. What are some ways that that we could influence, you know, our children and young people to be able to successfully walk through that without falling into it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, really good question, very important. Um, I'd say there's a couple of things. So number one is the sooner you start talking to your kids about not pornography specifically, but sex in general, the better. Okay, um, a lot of parents wait too long, or, like in my case, I just grew up in a home where we didn't talk about it, so pornography was sex ed for me. You know, I didn't get the birds and the bees talk. We had a little bit of a conversation at school and like one of our health classes, but there wasn't really much happening.
Speaker 1:But statistically, everything suggests that the best education always happens in the home. Don't let the school system do it, don't let their peers, your kids' peers, do it. You be the people who set the stage. And there's the principle of first mention. I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but the principle of first mention is you know, if you're the first person to talk about a subject, your kid will compare everything else that they hear on that subject to what they first heard. So you have the power in your hands to be that voice, especially if your kids are young.
Speaker 1:Now, if your kids are older and maybe you're hearing that, you're like oh, you know it's a little bit too late, or maybe it's like I know my kids watching porn and I don't know what to do about it.
Speaker 1:The best thing you can do is actually to share about your own experiences. You know, a lot of times we think, man, if I taught Generally, if they hear you know your dad struggled with this, here's how it affected my life, here's how I got clean, here's how my life is better, here's why I was able to raise you the way I raised you, because I quit porn. If they can hear that full story, comprehensively, that's actually what they need to hear. Number one it takes the pressure off. Instead of you presenting this facade like I've never struggled and now they feel like man anytime I fall short, like my dad's got it all figured out, what's wrong with me. It's going to actually facilitate shame. If you can tell about your shortcomings and you know how you work through them and everything else, that's going to preach a lot louder and it's actually way more likely to steer them clear of making that mistake themselves and to steer them clear of making that mistake themselves and tied into.
Speaker 1:that is the third thing I would say and this is especially for fathers, but it's true of mothers as well is you have to be the role model, like if you are a father and you're struggling with porn addiction, you don't want your kids to struggle. Go and figure it out for yourself. Carve that path, be the person who charts a new course for your family, and then let your kids follow in your trajectory. Otherwise, all you can do is send them off and hope that they go figure it out for themselves. But you know, if the father gets free, I'm telling you like it's a lot easier for the kids to follow in his footsteps.
Speaker 2:No, that makes total sense. Um, the last thing that that kind of popped into my mind. I'm trying to hit this from every angle too, and then and and suck all your advice and wisdom for my own family as well too.
Speaker 2:Um, because obviously both my wife wife and I have a history of um just sexual sin and stuff like that in our past. You know before Christ and all that. And sometimes you can see, even even though you you break free from that addiction, whatever it can affect, it can still affect those relationships early on and intimacy between married couples and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:It's a big one yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you, how do you navigate, is I'm trying to figure out. When you guys help people, is it kind of like the whole scope or like how do you guys help people beyond recovery, if that makes definitely very good question.
Speaker 1:So there's an emerging field in psychology called betrayal trauma. I don't know if you've ever heard of that yes, yeah, uh, recently.
Speaker 2:I didn't know about it till like a couple months ago oh okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we generally recommend for wives or spouses of our clients that they go through some betrayal trauma therapy or help, because typically what the wife experiences is betrayal trauma. You know it's traumatic to find out that your husband's had this problem and you can't help but feel betrayed. You know like he hid something from you, he's choosing somebody instead of you. You know all of that. So I think that part is super important. The one thing I will say that separates what we do that's quite different from a lot of other programs is we have a very strong emphasis on skill building. So one of the things we did when we designed our curriculum is we we tried to think of what can we teach our clients to do? That will not just help them get free, but it will also serve them afterwards to continue to stay free. So when we talk about building self-awareness as an example, that's a skill set that's very important early on in recovery just to kind of get an idea of what's going on. But on the other side of it, it's just as valuable, and we find that a lot of the guys that are willing to build self-awareness address the matters of the heart, do the three pillars, like we talked about. Usually they start to show up better and differently in their marriages and so there's a longer term play. You can actually quit porn a lot faster than you can rebuild a marriage and repair that trust. That part just takes longer. And the biggest thing, the best thing you can offer your marriage is consistency. The wife just she needs the consistency to know that you're actually a safe person. And it's not just consistency as in you have to be perfect and never watch again, although that's definitely the standard to aim towards but it does mean that along the way there's a consistency and transparency, just being honest about what's going on, letting her in. The more she feels like she's let in, the better chance your marriage has.
Speaker 1:So our focus is always on the guy helping him get clean of pornography. We highly the guy helping him get get clean of pornography. We highly encourage the spouse to do, you know, her work and to make sure she's getting the support she needs because, um, otherwise what happens very often is the guy gets clean. He's like I'm a, I'm a new person, I feel different, and she still doesn't trust him. Now, in some ways that's totally merited because you know he's been, you know, watching porn for years or decades or whatever it is, but at some point that has to shift and that it won't shift if the wife doesn't do her own work and you know, work through the pain and the hurt that it's caused. So those are the two big things that we really recommend for marriage to kind of get on track and get back into place.
Speaker 2:That's amazing. Um, no, everything you're saying is so thorough. I'm just thinking is yeah, just, it's so cool to see, to see somebody that, um is looking at the whole scope of everything and realizing how one thing affects another and making sure that we're not just plucking something out but not actually, you know, replacing it. But yeah.
Speaker 1:And on the other side of it it's like, yeah, you know, if you, if you show up with porn addiction, multiple areas of your life are probably affected. You know sexual intimacy with your spouse and maybe the way you're showing up for your kids, like I mentioned, productivity at work and you know jobs and all that kind of stuff. But the really cool thing is when you quit pornography, especially if you have a roots based approach like what we've been talking about, all of those areas get positively impacted, right, you start to show up differently for your kids. You start to show up for your spouse. You know, I had a client message me this week and he said man, my kids, my kids just said to me this week. They said, daddy, you, you don't get angry as much anymore, you're so much nicer to us.
Speaker 1:Like what's changed, you know? And he, like he started crying cause he's yeah, I think he's two months in with us. Um, but he's doing the work you know. He's building on self-awareness, he's become a lot more tender, he's working through some major trauma he's been through and his kids are starting to see the difference right, so they feel more comfortable around him, they feel safer. His kids are five and three. So for a majority of what's left of their childhood they're going to get a completely different dad. And that's the beauty of a hearts-based approach is everything in your world changes. We have this little tagline like if you change the man, you change the world, and you know that's because that guy, he's a business leader, he's respected in his community, he's very involved in his church. All of those facets of society become better when he gets better and that's why it's such a big deal to really get after the roots.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. You know I understand the concept of like affecting people that are in higher up positions and and because they have a lot of people under their influence and stuff, but there's something special about um impacting people one-on-one with something that is going to be transformative for everybody around them. And I think you know Jesus teaches that approach when he talks about the uh 30, 60 hundred fold fruit you know, it's that that good soil like you're planting seed and good soil, and it's going to impact everyone around them.
Speaker 2:That's kind of the approach that we've taken on on discipleship as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Instead of over-focusing or over-emphasizing on big evangelistic meetings and gatherings and stuff like that? Yeah, like if we can go really deep with a small amount of people. And then those people are so impacted and so affected that they become fruitful for the next generation, like that's when multiplication picks up speed. So I'm seeing that's where my brain is correlating with, with what you're doing, even though it seems like it's just one person at a time. One person at a time, it impacts everybody in that person's world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned that Cause I I went through this wrestle when I started this business. I started six years ago. I stopped pastoring three years ago and you know God called me to do this full time and the first year I really missed pastoring because I missed, you know, getting in there with people really knowing what's going on day to day. I missed the preaching. You know I missed so much of it. But what I really missed the most was the discipleship. Like I love teaching people about the foundations of the Bible and how to hear God's voice and you know I enjoyed it so much and I was kind of feeling like a little bit like down about it. The one day and I was online, I was just scrolling through our community platform and you know I just saw the conversations that were happening between the guys and some of them were referencing like some podcast content I had done on my show and you know there's a bunch of stuff and I felt like the Holy Spirit just whispered to me like Sathya, in case you didn't realize, like the mandate is still the same. That's right, you know what I mean. Like I mean it was the same before I got called to be a pastor like go and disciple for all of us. But he was like Sathya, like you're, you're still discipling people. You know, it just looks different, it's a bit more focused. But I love that you use that word, cause I feel so passionate about that, like being in there with people, getting in the weeds and discipling them through it, like showing them what the Bible says about it, pointing them back to Jesus and at the same time, giving that communal support while they do it. I think that's the way it's supposed to be and I think that's why you know this kind of.
Speaker 1:Going back now to our earlier conversation, but I think that is why the church struggles so much with areas like this and helping people is because the church doesn't disciple right. The church kind of just gathers and scatters. We don't really have a good model, like once your church is bigger than 50, 60 people, like discipleship just kind of gets thrown out, right, and so I think I think that's where this is such a big deal, because truth, truthfully, I don't know how necessary I would be if people were just getting discipled properly day to day, from day one. I'm sure we would still be necessary, but maybe not to the same extent, cause I think really healthy discipleship actually does transform the heart. You know like we're talking about. It takes, it takes care of a lot of those matters and it gives you the support you need when you're going through those issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's really good. I had, we did. I did a podcast with a guy named Neil Cole. He's an author of a book called organic church. I've read his stuff for for a while now. So it was awesome to have him on here and um had a revelation when I was talking with him. I kept saying you know, pastors, pastors, pastors, and. And he's like you realize that most pastors in the pulpit are actually, they're teachers, they're not actually pastors.
Speaker 2:It's just a. It's a. It's the title of the position of the person in leadership that we give to them, Because most of our, most of our church structure is built around teaching.
Speaker 2:That's why we have Bible school and Bible classes, and programs and stuff like that and the main focus is on a Sunday sermon, which which teaches. So it's it's very appropriate to have teaching, but we're so focused on just the teaching aspect. The the actual shepherding doesn't happen, especially when you have church congregation that's, like you said, above 50, 60 members or something like that. It's just impossible. And so I think a lot of true shepherds, a lot of true pastors, um, if they left that teaching position and got more involved in the one-on-one discipleship and stuff like that, would be more fulfilled.
Speaker 2:And also, you know the revelation that I had in the past years was that you can absolutely do all those things and use your gifting Like it would feel weird saying, well, how do you pastor if you don't have a church or whatever, but shepherding is so much more than standing behind a pulpit and teaching a sermon. Like it's really, really getting involved in people's lives and shepherding as well, and that can take place in a coffee shop and a house and a in the workplace, you know wherever.
Speaker 2:So it's cool for you to see that as well, to see like and the. Lord, to show you like the mandate is still the same.
Speaker 1:Like you, go and make disciples you serve and love people you preach the gospel, you can. You can do all of that stuff, regardless of the structure. Yeah, it's so true. And you know, I think you know when I dream about our, our clients, becoming like leaders in their communities.
Speaker 1:And you know, whatever it is, I think the the thing that excites me the most these days especially I'm I'm a new father, you know, I have a little kid and another one on the way is, um, the way that guys are showing up at home, like I think it's always. At the end of the day, I think the greatest transformation always happens in the home, whether the guy is a business of you know with 200 employees or whatever. If he's got two kids and those kids are getting raised by a dad who's present, who's walking in integrity, he's not a hypocrite behind closed doors, he treats his, their mom better because he's clean and he's not objectifying women anymore, Like that's what this is really all about, and I think if, if the homes continue to be changed, then the world gets better as well.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful, I think. Uh, you know, I was going to ask you to almost define for me, like what you see, biblical masculinity as kind of defined it.
Speaker 2:Iterate there in a little bit, but just to preface that, like when I grew up, you know, my dad was an alcoholic. He, uh, his brothers, would come over to watch sports games. They would, you know, cuss and smoke and drink and all that stuff. And so I'm, I'm watching as a kid, you know, super jealous. I can't stay up late and hang out with dad and watch the hockey game or the football game or whatever, and um, and and then I would see him get in fights and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:And that's what I thought masculinity was, that's what I thought a man was, and so I spent so many years trying that and realizing and it failing uh, before I finally started to stumble and figure out what it was to be, uh, you know, a godly man, or really a man in general, at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I would say the the more masculine you are, the less distance there is between your convictions and your lifestyle. I think that's what real masculinity is at the end of the day. You know it's, I know, I know what's true and I'm making every effort in my life to live by it. You know, and there's there's some foundational elements, but I, you know, masculinity obviously has been a huge subject the last couple of years, especially, right, and I mean I'm from Canada, so you can only imagine the kind of conversations we're having up there. It's like so liberal in Toronto, right, yeah, but I, I think for me, this has been like where I've landed, at least for now.
Speaker 1:I could tell you, like you know, men lead, and that's certainly biblical, you know, and men are strong, whether it's, you know, physically or mentally or whatever. I think there's qualities and there's attributes. But the men that I respect the most, whether we're talking about the men of the Bible, the men that I have in my own life, are the people who they have a conviction and they live by it, and I think it's so simple but it's so lost in our society, especially in, like, you and I are content creators and one of the biggest temptations of content creators is to produce content that's not real right. It's to say something. I can project a message and I can have the facade on camera like it looks a certain way, but behind closed doors could be a completely different story. That's the biggest danger of media right and I think a real man in today's day and age, he just lives by what he believes, he lives by his convictions, at whatever the cost might be, and I can't think of something more manly than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree, and I think that encompasses what you said about being a leader and being strong and stuff like that. You know, doing what you say you're going to do, following your convictions, living by that is a way to lead you know leading a lot of people misunderstand as being over somebody or having someone under your control, but it's more leadership by. I'm going to be the one that's going to go first. I'm going to set the standard. I'm going to pave the way for others.
Speaker 2:And that's where I see strength in leadership, and so that's beautiful man.
Speaker 1:Oh man, this has been awesome. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on.
Speaker 2:So two things. First thing, there's somebody out there watching and they're in the middle of this struggle, right, this battle, but they're they're. They're teetering back and forth on whether or not they can control it, or whether or not it's an issue or not, and but they know it's negatively affecting their lives. Like, what do you say to that that guy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, um, you have to just decide, like, how far you're willing to go down that road before you make a change. Yeah, yeah, you know I have a lot of husbands that have come to me that are like you know, do I really have to tell my wife? And I always say, well, no, you don't. You know, you have two options you can confess or you can get caught.
Speaker 2:It's up to you.
Speaker 1:It only ends one way right, one way or the other, rather. So you have to make the choice. So I think for people that are on that journey like I can tell you all the clients that we've worked with they were in your position and they never thought they would get into the position where they needed to be one of my clients. So it's a slippery slope and it's more slippery than people realize. So I say, nip things in the bud as soon as you can. 100%. If people are looking for help and they even want to learn more about us, they can get a free copy of my book. If they just follow me on Instagram and DM me me book, I'll send over a free copy. Okay, that explains my whole system that I was kind of outlining today in way more depth, and that's a great way for people to get started a bit more um. So those would be some of the starting points awesome.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate, appreciate you being on today hanging out. I'll get all your uh links in the, in the, in the description and all that stuff so people can connect with you perfect, that was going to be the second thing I asked, so yeah, yeah um, yeah, so thanks so much for your time. I've learned a wealth of knowledge today and I'm excited because I've I've honestly after I'll probably listen to this through again and and because I feel more equipped to even help people and at least point people in a nice direction.
Speaker 2:That's what's beautiful about having people that almost specialize in a way. Right, you take your, your struggles, you overcome them and then you're you're, you're almost like like an expert in that field of of helping people to get free, and then we can connect. I think that's how the body of Christ can use their giftings. Like I'm like oh, I know a guy that can help you with this, or I know a girl that can help you with this, it's just so cool, Uh, just to, just to have connections with that.
Speaker 1:So oh, thanks man, Thanks for having me. This was.