reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
Why the American Church Keeps Hurting People (And What We Did to Save our Faith) | #reChurch Ep. 16
So many people have been wounded by the institutional church, and it’s not just by accident—the system itself is often set up in a way that leads to hurt. In this episode, we dive deep into the reality of church hurt, why it happens so often in the American church, and how to heal without walking away from faith altogether. We share our personal journeys, the hard questions we had to wrestle with, and the steps we took to rebuild a faith that wasn’t tied to broken systems. If you’ve been disappointed, burned, or even traumatized by church, this conversation is for you. Let’s talk about what’s next.
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It's not that people are intentionally meaning to hurt, but the system is set up to hurt, Just like when you have children coming out of an orphanage like they feel unseen, unhurt. They're living and they're surviving, but they're not thriving.
Speaker 2:And so the pressure's off and so you can actually to start the process of healing and then entering into not just healing and stabilizing and growing would be acknowledging it. So do you think we should just pretend it never happened? Acknowledging it? So do you think we should just pretend it never happened?
Speaker 1:or is it okay to actually acknowledge somebody did something? I think what's healthy is to actually like recognize, maybe even too, that you put your hope in a person and not in Christ, and recognize that those people are people and they're not Jesus, and those people are called to.
Speaker 2:Bitterness is like poison to the soul. Have you ever felt that? Trying to like creep in? What was that like and how did you combat that?
Speaker 1:It starts with the hurt. You get hurt by somebody and then, instead of giving the anger and forgiving quickly, you begin to mull over what the person says.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the ReChurch podcast. If you're tired of business as usual, Christianity I'm laughing because my wife's staring at me, kind of funny and you're ready to live like Jesus? I don't know if I said that twice or not, but you found yourself in the right place. So I'm here with Princess Brooke.
Speaker 1:Princess, how are you doing, not a princess.
Speaker 2:You're not or am.
Speaker 1:I Don't deny it, don't deny it.
Speaker 2:You treat me like one, so I guess I am. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Lord thinks of you that way.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's true. He actually gave me a vision of that once.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're supposed to see people like Jesus Just prophesying. Yeah, awesome. Well, thanks for being with us today. We have a really good topic today, and that is we're going to talk about church hurt.
Speaker 2:We're going to talk about it in a little bit of a different context than it may have been talked about in other videos. You have seen A lot of people talk about it in general, just being hurt by the religious institution, whatever you want to call it, but then those people either go rogue or they turn atheist, or they just never go back. Right, yeah, we're going to talk about in the sense of people that have come out of the institution have either been hurt in the sense of somebody actually, you know, did something wrong to them or the just the hurt from feeling deceived, because when your eyes are open to the truth of what's actually in the scriptures about church, you can feel like why was I lied to? And so this person, though, is not turning away from the faith, they're not turning into an atheist, they're not doing nothing, they're actually pursuing Jesus, even though they've stepped out of the institution of church, and they're feeling hurt or allowing maybe a little bit of bitterness to creep in and uh, and that's the temptation to almost move forward in a in a rebellious way, and we don't want that either, but we've seen that it's a temptation for those who have come out of the institution.
Speaker 2:So we're going to talk about that. We're talking about a couple of different things, and we're talking about, uh, basically what to do. Uh, and you know, by acknowledging it, um, we're gonna talk about the dangers of, if you don't handle it properly, like what can happen, and we're going to talk about that pathway to healing and growth. Okay, so number one, the first thing I want to talk about and, brooke, you may not be able to speak to this from a personal perspective because everybody's got different exits from the church system.
Speaker 2:Some people were hurt, some people just had a bad experience, stuff like that. But I know at least you've talked to a lot of people and worked through and discipled a lot of people who have been hurt, and that's the reason they left. And the reason I know that this has happened to a lot of people is because it's the label that we get the most when people hear us preach our message is they? Immediately say, oh, they're just church hurt and they're rebellious.
Speaker 1:And I'm like well, no, I'm not, or you must've been a part of a bad church or had a bad experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah sure, it's just how they, how they want to frame the situation, and it's not always true, but what have you seen? What are some of the, some of the ways or some of the reasons people have left the church or what they experienced, like how are they hurt?
Speaker 1:I have so many examples, yeah, Um, some of the hurts can be. I'll just give some, some short scenarios of different hurts, cause it might hit different people. Um, some of the hurts are they feel betrayed because, uh, the pastor didn't give them the attention they wanted. Or maybe they gave the pastor some information and the pastor misused the information. One recently I heard was the pastors sent a couple off to do like a church plant somewhere, a satellite church plant and just sent them off and never checked in on them, shepherded them through it, took care of them and then, when the church plant failed, they came back to the mother church, I guess, and nobody checked in on them or asked them how it went. It almost was like it didn't happen because it failed. So they felt unseen, you know. So I think when you set a church up as an orphanage, you're doomed to hurt people.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because you, as one leader, cannot give attention to more than 20 people at a time, so the structure is set up to fail. To harm you. Yeah, so I think it's more appropriate to say the church hurt comes from the system not being set up properly to where people can actually have their needs met and their hearts met and ministry done to them.
Speaker 2:I think too this is just coming to me as you're speaking, because it's not that people have too high of an expectation. That's right, it's. It's marketed to you to have that expectation, that's right. Do you know what I'm?
Speaker 1:saying, and I think that's what sets it up for a letdown is.
Speaker 2:It's like come to our church, we're going to give you everything you need, we're going to pamper you, we're here for you, Join this group you need. We're going to pamper you, we're here for you, join this group. We've got 20 pastors on staff to do all this. And you're almost walking into it like wow, they've got my back, like I'm going to did this and get that, and then you realize that's not what it's.
Speaker 1:It's not possible. It's not possible. It's not possible in the way that the institutional church is set up, you know, because you're set up to depend on one, two, three, five people but they don't have the capacity. Um, I heard Neil recently say, like you can only really have 120 friends. You could walk up to their dinner table and sit down without being invited. You know, past that, like you're maxed out and we've got churches at 500 to 10,000 to 20,000 people capacity.
Speaker 2:I thought this is a total side effect but the other day I was thinking about that, the moment that you went up and sat down at a stranger's table.
Speaker 1:Except for me. But it was to like share your face.
Speaker 2:It was different, except for Brooke. I'm like. You are literally the exception to that rule.
Speaker 1:You sent a picture to some friends of me of ours, of a picture of her lasagna.
Speaker 2:I know I'm like only Brooke would get offered a bite of someone's lasagna. She just met 30 seconds ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, anyway, the general rule.
Speaker 2:I do believe I'm a rare breed. You can only have deep relationships with that many people. If that, I think honestly as an introvert, well, I think what his.
Speaker 1:His point was is like 120 people. You feel comfortable with sitting at the table if you walk into a restaurant uninvited to their table, but like that doesn't mean you're doing deep life with them.
Speaker 2:You got 120 best friends.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, no, Unless you're me Again. No, I'm just kidding. I have a friend. She's like how many best friends do you have? I'm like I have a lot of best friends, Like I love a lot of people. They think I'm their best friend, but they're my best friend to me, you know. So, anyways, but I think that it's not that people are intentionally meaning to hurt, but the system is set up to hurt. You know, just like when you have children coming out of an orphanage, like they feel unseen, unheard. They're living and they're surviving, but they're not thriving. That's right.
Speaker 2:That's a good example. Yeah, so yes. If you're entering into a system like that, you almost have to lower your expectation because you're not going to get that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the thing is not only that they're not meeting the expectation, it's not as if God sets that expectation and they're not meeting it. He doesn't even expect that he doesn't expect you to meet that expectation. That's why the system is flawed, it's wrong.
Speaker 1:That's not what the biblical prescription is, and so a lot of people. But if we actually did like Neil said on the podcast that was just posted, we're supposed to one another, each other. The institutional system is not set up to one another, if that makes sense. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:No, it's not, and I think honestly the the the one of the greatest things I've experienced is coming out of the institution is that I've, I've, I don't feel the pressure to to do something that was impossible from the beginning. Right, it's like, oh okay, really, I'm just called to to preach the gospel and to make disciples and to obey the Holy spirit, as he calls me to obey. I don't need to like shepherd a thousand people.
Speaker 1:I don't need to.
Speaker 2:You know, do all these, these things, do these ministry things, and so the pressure's off and so you can actually enjoy it. Um, it's, it's very tough once things become like a job, right, right, you just look at them differently. And so with that ministry, the more I got involved in quote, unquote ministry, the more it felt like a job. And then I started to to have this discrepancy inside of me because I really wasn't, I didn't like it anymore. But then I felt bad admitting that, because I thought it was what we had to do as Christians. And so the battle inside of me was like what's wrong with me? Why do I feel bad doing something that God has called me to do? And the more I pursue it, the more I feel burnt out and worn out on it. And some of you may not feel that way. That's great, but I did, and I'm sure there are other people that feel that way, and for me, coming out of that and removing all of the, the business aspect, the job aspect of it, brought life back into it.
Speaker 2:The organic way of doing things like really relation, relational and again we go back to this, this example, all the time like a family. A family can become like work as well If you try to over-structure it and make it into a business or a job, but when relationships organically flow, it's so fun. You know what I'm saying? It's not that there's not hardships, but it's like can you imagine if you got invited to your? Your best friend invited you out for coffee but it.
Speaker 2:But when you got there they laid out like a nine point structure of the conversation, right? Or if you know, every week you met together, you met for 45 minutes and the first 15 minutes was that and the first game. It's like you would eventually you'd be like this feels like work, or she. Or say your, your best friend, had the questions already listed out. Like, and read through the questions, it it would be like, yeah, you would just, you would just lose that excitement. So, going back to you know that system is set up to fail, going back to the person that's come out and has experienced the hurt, I think the very first thing to do to start the process of healing and then entering into not just healing and stabilizing but growing, would be acknowledging it. So do you think we should just pretend it never happened, or is it okay to actually acknowledge somebody did something wrong?
Speaker 1:Yeah, stuffing is like a really good concoction for a blow up later on in life you know what I mean. Like you'll just stuff, stuff, stuff until you snap Maybe not blow up, but a snapping point. But no, I think what's healthy is to actually like recognize that there's been hurt, recognize maybe even too, that you put your hope in a person and not in Christ. You know and recognize that those people are people and they're not Jesus, and recognize that those people are people and they're not Jesus. You know, and those people are called to walk alongside of you, but not just they're not your savior, they're not your rescuer and giving them grace because they're learning and they also have stuff they've got to fix and deal with in their lives.
Speaker 1:You know, just because somebody is ministering doesn't mean they're perfect and it also doesn't mean they don't have stuff that they're working through as well. Maybe they're just farther along so they can work through it quicker and faster, you know, than maybe you can, because it's your first time really dealing with something in a healthy way. So I think, taking off expectations that only Jesus can meet on people and putting those on him because he never fails, and and taking off those expectations of people who are not Jesus, who are human, who will fail you and just be, and just be real with the hurt and, honestly, if you have the ability to have a healthy conversation with them, talk to them about it. Some people you can't have healthy conversations with because they don't do that well, but if they are able to be talked through, talk through it. Don't ignore it, work through it the best you can and then move forward. Yeah, move forward.
Speaker 2:I think one thing that I've learned is that a lot of our inner turmoil comes from trying to control exterior things, comes from trying to control exterior things, and when we do that, we're typically neglecting the internal things that we can control Right, and so we're spending all our efforts trying to externally change the people around us when we can't Right, and then we're so focused on that that we don't actually deal with things inside, and that's where bitterness begins to creep in so.
Speaker 2:I think for people, starting with the acknowledgement is the best place to start, not for them, but for you for yourself like just being truthful with it and admitting like, yeah, what they did was wrong, and here's what it did to me and here's the result of that, and here's how I feel about that. But you don't stay there right If you stay there. That's where you get stuck.
Speaker 2:That's right, and you begin to let those people control you. So now, not only have those people hurt you, but now they're continuing to have space in your brain and control you as time goes on. Even though they have no idea, they're still doing that. So it's almost like the poison that just keeps on poisoning you, and that's why it's so important to recognize and handle these things.
Speaker 1:Quickly, correctly, quickly and correctly, yeah, because I think the Bible says like don't go to sleep with like anger you know in your heart. And I think that because it says it tells you the result of if you go to sleep with anger in your heart, the result is the enemy gets a foothold in your life and if you continue to go to sleep night after night after night with this anger in your heart, the foothold goes from a foothold to a leg hold, to a half body hold to a full body hold.
Speaker 1:You know, like the enemy just yeah, right up in your life and the enemy begins to wreak havoc.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, dealing with your anger before you go to bed on a situation that is maybe rightfully so, like you have the right to be angry, but God says, deal with it before you go to bed.
Speaker 1:So it shows you it can be dealt with quickly, in the sense of you can let go of the anger and then, as you've let go of the anger, you can actually deal with the hurt and get healed from it in a healthy way where the enemy doesn't have a foothold. If God says, do this, it means it's possible. But I think so many of us come from such bad hurts, traumas, childhoods a lot of us not everybody, but many that we don't even know how to give up our anger quickly or deal with it before we go to bed at night. You know, and that's something we're learning and we've had to learn but I know for me that just sitting before the Lord and saying, lord, like I'm giving you my purest heart in this situation, whether you handled it right or not, you know, forgive my role if I have done anything, but I also just forgive this person and I don't hold anything against them, and then that gives you time to heal properly without the enemy's foot all up in it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, I think, Sure, I think you know, like what you were saying, recognizing it and recognizing it also, that there are people in the Bible that experience this. Also, jesus experienced this, and so there's nothing wrong with you feeling a certain way or, you know, responding a certain way. It's just if we, if actually go back, there is a problem with you responding a certain way. It's just if we actually go back, there is a problem with you responding a certain way. So we look at Jesus' example of how he responded. Because he had betrayal and he recognized it. He told people that Judas betrayed him.
Speaker 2:Like he even told Judas, before he would betray him, that he would betray him Right.
Speaker 2:So he recognized the truth of the situation and what was happening. But there was a specific way that he responded, and not in every response, and this is the thing people don't understand. Did he chase everyone down and try to make the relationship perfect, right? How many Pharisees stabbed him in the back or spoke against him or tried to sabotage his entire ministry? Same thing with Paul. Like Paul got to the end of his life and he's like I've got like one guy.
Speaker 1:I got like one guy, he got like one guy stuck around, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he recognized that he's like all have turned away from me. Right, he had people. He would go in and spend days or months with people and then turn around and people would come back and behind him and sabotage his work.
Speaker 2:So if anybody had a right to be bitter, it was Paul or Jesus who were put to death literally while they all they were trying to do was good. But they recognized that. I think they recognized that they could not change those people right. It was those people's responsibility to have their hearts turn from their ways and repent towards God. But what they did do is continually stay in relationship with God to make sure that their hearts were responding the right way. And I think that's where we need to begin to deal with these things.
Speaker 2:And that doesn't mean to continuously put yourself in the path of getting trampled on either. That's where a lot of people get mistaken. They're like, you know. You just need to get back in the situation and tie up your boots and stand there and take it and it's like, no, like you don't put yourself in the pathway of that, but you're also keeping yourself in check with the Lord. And I like this scripture Psalm 34, 18. It says the Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves the crushed in spirit. So even you would look at David in the Psalms and think if he wasn't truthful with the Lord and didn't admit where he was, could he experience that same nearness of the Lord? And didn't admit where he was, could he experience that same nearness of the Lord who comforted him in his brokenness. So ignoring it also blocks out the Lord from actually being able to meet you in that broken place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what I was about to say. I think we feel like God expects us to have it all together. I know I've been guilty of that. I can't take this to the Lord. I should be past this, but it wasn't until I got really real with Him that he could actually heal what I was dealing with and, honestly, it's just a form of pride. You've got to get through knowing that God doesn't expect you to have it all together, but what he does expect you to do is cast all your burdens upon the Lord, and so don't keep those burdens. Actually give them to Him and maybe find one safe person in the body of Christ or two that are healthy and are going to push you towards Christ that you can process it with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. So tell me about this, because if we don't do that, what happens? You said it earlier the foothold turns into a kneehold to a neckhold whatever.
Speaker 1:I just pictured the enemy like toe, knee, side, body, full body.
Speaker 2:That's where bitterness begins to creep in, and I wanted to say Hebrews 12, 15 was a scripture that I had on that. But bitterness is like poison to the soul. Have you ever felt that trying to like creep in? What was that like and how did you combat that? 100%?
Speaker 1:No, I've let bitterness take root and I had to get free from it and repent from it. You know, but bitterness starts with. It starts with the hurt. You know you get hurt by somebody and then, instead of giving the anger and forgiving quickly, you begin to mull over what the person says, like what you were talking about earlier, giving them space in their mind and your mind, and they don't even know they have space. They don't even know they're paying rent in your mind.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying they ain't paying rent. That's the problem.
Speaker 1:That's the problem and they're living in your mind, you know. So I think when you begin to mull over things and not process it with the Lord because in your mind you're justifying yourself to the person, that's your first sign of bitterness is taking root, instead of taking it to the Lord in prayer Like you have to take it to the Lord in prayer, but I've been guilty of that Like something happens and then it gets in your mind. You will over what they said and then you mull over what they said and then all of a sudden you're defending yourself in your own mind and boom, bitterness is there and it doesn't have to grow into a massive tree. You know, just begin to notice the seeds and the roots of bitterness and pluck it out quickly before it becomes a tree. But let's say it is a big, fat tree in your life you need deliverance. If it's grown into a tree, you need freedom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because that door has stayed open, where that foothold has become a stronghold that's right stronghold has created a house, house in your mind, for the enemy for the demonic to live in, and so a lot of people don't. And that's that's a really good point that you mentioned, because a lot of these things start off as small things that you can. It's kind of like if you pulled a very small sapling out of the ground so easy, but you go try to yank a redwood out of the yeah, think about your.
Speaker 1:GMC trying to get that tree out of one of those yards.
Speaker 2:You did peel it out, yeah yeah, it just doesn't work. And so there there could be a point where you reach where you you've allowed the demonic to enter in and to gain a space and you need the supernatural power and authority of the Lord to actually free you from that.
Speaker 2:I was thinking about bitterness. What bitterness does is is it's almost like if you can picture you, you know, holding pain in your heart and your heart being porous, as in like that pain can, can get, it has a way out. The Bible calls it callous, a calloused heart. So as you allow that bitterness to creep in, it almost calcifies your heart to where it creates a wall. That does two things Number one, it traps that pain inside and number two, it keeps the Lord out from being able to work in and heal that place.
Speaker 2:So I think another aspect of that of overcoming that is also to because, as you were saying that a lot of scriptures came into your mind, right, so actually going over the scriptures and seeing what the scripture says about how to deal with those things and how we deal with burdens and how we confess things to the Lord, like there's a reason, like those are actually commands to obey, because that's how the Lord wants us to process through these things. Yes, we need people. Yes, it's good to have people around you, community around you, to help you, but there is a scriptural command of what to do with these thoughts very early on, so that they don't take them captive take that place.
Speaker 1:That's what I was saying in the beginning, like you, you have to take the thoughts captive, because the thoughts is what turns into seeds of bitterness. So I've always looked at taking thoughts captive, because the thoughts is what turns into seeds of bitterness. So I've always looked at taking thoughts captive as like a baseball game the thought, the bad thought, is that line drive down the center of the field to your mind. And when I mean, I had one this morning at the gym. To be honest with you, I had this weird random thought that came into my mind and I'm like ew, I rebuke that in Jesus' name. You know it doesn't mean the thought's going to come into the mind. And then it's what do you do with the thought? And you either cast it down or you take it as your own right.
Speaker 1:And if you take ungodly thoughts captive, they will produce something in you, whether that's sin, lust, anger, bitterness, whatever it's been sent to do. You know so. And in the beginning it's exhausting, feeling like you have to take every thought captive. You're like literally every single thought, and it literally says every thought captive. But as you begin to practice this it gets a little bit easier. You know so, once you analyze the thought and you realize it's not from God, then boom, throw that thing out Like no, I rebuke that, that is not of the Lord, and cast it down. And you might have to do it a few times before it actually is removed from your thought process. But the longer you think on it, the harder it is to cast it down. The faster you cast it down, the easier it is to remove it. The thought pattern.
Speaker 2:I think about the repetition of thought and the amount of focus that you put on. It reminds me of water and fertilizing a plant. It's almost like if you had a patch of weeds outside and you fertilize the weeds. That's right.
Speaker 1:That's not good.
Speaker 2:They don't even need help growing and you're pouring Miracle-Gro on them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're going to have a bunch of bamboo. Isn't that funny, though how?
Speaker 2:like what you want to grow out there, takes so much care, and then it'll like if you don't pay attention to it.
Speaker 1:it'll die, it just dies.
Speaker 2:But yet how many people are out there planting weeds?
Speaker 1:But they grow without you asking. You don't have to do nothing and you'll kill them. And they still come back.
Speaker 2:I remember one day I went out to my lawnmower and there was like a weed growing out of the deck, the platform, I'm like. A little bit of dirt got in one of the pedals and was sitting there on the deck and a weed sprout out. I'm like how in the world it had like this much soil? But it's wild.
Speaker 1:But I think that's like. The key, though, is like pulling the root, the seeds, out before they can grow into trees. You know, people are like you know, how did I get here? And I'm like, wow, you have taken years to just think and mold, cause, like we deal with a lot of people who, like, come for prayer or need assistance and things, and when they tell stories that happened 30 years ago, they tell it like it happened yesterday. You want to know why? Cause they've thought about that thing every single day for 30 years, you know, and it's on a rat wheel in their mind. And that's, man, where you can get really sick in your heart.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I do want to emphasize it's not like we haven't gone through these things too. It's like it's just you, or yeah, yeah, this is something that is has been a battle for us as well. Things that pop up, but you want to deal with them when they do. I think of biblically. This story popped in my head, the story of Joseph as a prime example, Like his own family turned against him, betrayed him Like his own brothers put him in a pit and like think about how he chose to respond to that situation.
Speaker 2:Think about, if he would have chose to respond with bitterness, how that story would have played out, he definitely wouldn't have become secondhand to the Pharaoh.
Speaker 1:You don't have the capacity to do that or the energy, because bitterness sucks the life out of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know? So, yeah, that would have been a very different outcome.
Speaker 2:It doesn't. I don't think it necessarily shows us the process of what he did, like the heart work that he did through that, but it does show the fruit of it, and that was even when he was placed in a position where of power over his brother's situation. Like not that he was, I guess in that situation. It was over his his brothers governmentally. But he didn't. He did play with them a little bit.
Speaker 1:Well, what I think I don't cause. I knew that was going to come into play, like I don't even think he was playing with them. I think he was testing to see if their character had changed and you should like if, if a traumatizer comes back into your life. You need to ask some hard questions to see and test their hearts to see if they've actually changed, because the enemy can bring them right back in or people or people that are like them.
Speaker 2:So ask hard questions to see if there's actually change Almost like you ain't gonna fool me twice.
Speaker 1:No, you're not gonna yeah.
Speaker 2:I ain't going into a second hole, that's right.
Speaker 1:That's right. You ain't telling me twice. No, you're not going to. Yeah, I'm going into a second hole, that's right. That's right, you ain't telling me twice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's cool to see those, those stories in the Bible and see how God treats those people who have overcome those trials. And I think partly. Yes, it's God blessed. God's blessing falls on their life. But two they through that circumstance, just like we talked about in the last episode. They build the character through persevering through that trial and that hardship, even though it came at the hands of other people. They develop the character that can actually carry the weight good weight of what God has placed in their life the blessing he's placed on their life.
Speaker 2:Same thing with Job. That's so good.
Speaker 1:I think one thing to add too is like if you realize right now that there's bitterness in your heart or you've had church hurt Because again a lot of people want to be like, because we're so hard against the institutional church and the traditions that nullify the Word of God, I want you to understand we're not upset with the people, we're upset with the traditions that have been resurrected, but the people are the ones giving the traditions power, so we got to really speak to that.
Speaker 2:But if tradition is not going to change no tradition is an inanimate object.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. The people have to change and give, take away the power to the tradition. So I think if you find yourself in a place where you're like, wow, maybe I do have bitterness in my heart, like, what do I need to do to begin to deal with the bitterness in my heart? And at first is as simple as just making the choice to forgive.
Speaker 1:Forgiveness is a choice. It's not a feeling or an emotion. It's just like waking up to brush your teeth, like I'm going to be real in the morning. Sometimes that's not the first thing I want to do when I wake up to brush my teeth, but I know the result of brushing my teeth is good for me. I'm not going to have bloody gums, I'm not going to have cavities All the things. Gingivitis will stay away from my mouth. So I do it because I know the result is good for me. And it's the same with forgiveness. I choose forgiveness because I know the result is good for me.
Speaker 1:So, making the choice to forgive, it starts with the choice and eventually your emotions will line up with your decision to forgive the person, and the emotional part might take time. You might not feel butterflies and rainbows for the person who's traumatized you or hurt you or harmed you, but eventually you're not going to feel like you could vomit every time you think about them. You're actually going to be able to pray for them with a pure heart. If you ran into them, you could actually love them well. It doesn't mean you have to be their best friend again or do life with them or put yourself in the same position to be hurt again, but you can actually have good motive and intention towards them and when you think about them you don't, you know, go through the same trauma they put you through 20 years ago.
Speaker 1:So just choosing to forgive because, and again putting in the position of Christ like we all nailed him on the cross by committing sins. You know, um, but he still chose to forgive us anyways, um. So if he can do that, we have to tap into that source, into Jesus's ability to forgive us who nailed him to a cross. And when you tap into that place, you can see people very differently and forgiveness becomes easier.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you think? What about situations where maybe people aren't directly involved say that they left the traditional church system or they're not like super close to a family member? Whoever you're hurt by? We're talking about church hurt in this episode but what about, like, the person that keeps?
Speaker 1:bringing on the stuff.
Speaker 2:So maybe you don't even go to that church anymore, but they're continuously speaking poorly about you and trampling your name. How do you work through that and not letting bitterness root in when it's a constant cycle?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you bless them in prayer and to the ability that you can you protect yourself from the trauma and the hurt. I know this sounds crazy, but if you need to block them from your social media so you can't see the subliminal messages, that gets your heart in the wrong place. Like, let's say, you just came out of your prayer calls and you're like, lord, bless you, know Sally Jo and bless her life or heart. How we'd be naming people random. This is what I do. Jess is always like Brooke stop.
Speaker 2:Or Sally Jo.
Speaker 1:Bless Sally, jo, bless her socks off, and then you get on Facebook or Instagram or a text message or whatever, and that person's once again hurting you the same way. You just had to forgive them. It's okay to remove that constant dagger in your life. You can block that person so you can't see it. And it's not because you're saying, hey, I hate you, I don't like you, I'm blocking you from my social media. No, I have forgiven you multiple times already and so I can stay in forgiveness and in pure heart towards you. I have to remove you so that I can actually love you well.
Speaker 1:So sometimes it looks like setting some boundaries, um, in your own life, and it might even be boundaries they don't have to know about. Sometimes it's boundaries that have to be made very clear to the person, just depending on the situation. But set those boundaries and then continue to move forward, sometimes removing the constant visual of the trauma, or say you can't, say it's a family member you know, or a church you know, a person in your church that you can't run away from. You just have to begin to love them, pray for them and set boundaries with those people. And it looks different for everyone. So and then stick to the boundary that you've set.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen too. I remember when I first saw this in scripture and I've read over it plenty of times, but it never hit me until we were going through a situation of persecution. But Jesus didn't always say stay in the midst of your persecution. I've heard a lot of people to be like oh, I'm just toughing it out because I just feel like I've just got to stick with this person or I've got to see them through.
Speaker 2:And Jesus actually told his disciples when you're persecuted in one town go to the next and that was helpful for us also, seeing at one point we're like all right, there comes a point to where your message is not being received. And the Lord is like. I'm going to take you where it will be received.
Speaker 1:That's right. I don't know, I guess, for to take you where it will be received.
Speaker 2:That's right, you know. So I don't know. I guess for people that keep that in mind as well, like you, don't always have to quote, unquote, stick it out, uh, further than the Lord is calling you to, because there could be people that are ready to receive uh, his message somewhere else and see the fruit of that, his message somewhere else and see the fruit of that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so I know this was a short and sweet episode, but I really hope it was helpful for those of you who have gone through some hurt. There's so many different situations that it could be. I mean, we didn't even talk about people that have been abused in the church. That's like a whole other topic. I don't even know if YouTube would let us talk about it, but uh it. It's just we're realizing, like the, the system that's created that puts people in power is the problem.
Speaker 2:And that's why we speak out against it. And again, we love the people and that is the reason that we speak out against a particular system that puts people in power. That's not to say that you just by doing quote-unquote organic church or just by meeting in a home or something like that, that you're going to completely avoid any type of hurt or situations where people can harm you.
Speaker 1:It's going to happen, it's inevitable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we've been in situations outside of the institutional church where people have done things against us, persecuted us, slandered our name. So it doesn't matter what four walls you're in, it doesn't matter if you're in a home, a coffee shop, someone cuss you out in a coffee shop or your car, it doesn't matter if you're having church in your vehicle, on a bus, like it can still happen, and so that's why it's so important to recognize these things Now. We're not going to intentionally erect systems that facilitate that and make it easier for that person or that narcissistic person or that person that craves power to be in.
Speaker 2:So that's what we're talking about, is that let's not make it easy for them but, let's not also think that you're immune to it because you're in a different form of church if that makes sense. So you just have to be aware of that in every situation. So again, I hope this was helpful and we'll help you guys kind of navigate through that. We talked about uh one acknowledging it, which also includes walking through forgiveness. That process is not always quick and sometimes many times, if not all times, it is a process of forgiveness, where you have to repeatedly forgive someone every single day.
Speaker 2:That's not for them. Like Brooke said, it's a, it's an action, it's a decision. It's a decision, it's not a feeling. So we make our decisions based on truth, we are actions based on truth, and we allow our emotions, or we tell our emotions, to get in line with the back of the train and they will follow. So, acknowledging that, being aware of the enemy's strongholds, his footholds, not allowing him to gain access into our life through things like bitterness and resentment, that's the second thing, and anger, yeah, yeah that we talked about, and then just practical ways of renewing our mind to understand how to actually walk that out through knowing what the scriptures say about how to move forward.
Speaker 2:Because, like this episode is titled, like when that comes in, we don't just want to get back to a place of homeostasis and neutrality, we want to actually grow and thrive. So we want to take what the enemy just like Joseph says, what the enemy meant for harm.
Speaker 2:We want to actually turn that into something that actually builds our character, grows us, not only grows us and grows our character, but allows us to help others through that. That's really how you get back at the enemy, or get back at the person is by allowing the situation to actually create in you more Christlike character and therefore help more people through that situation. Right.
Speaker 1:I think the world that's a really good point the world tells you just to get back to that homeostasis place like that neutral place, that stress-free place for you so you can be good. But Jesus says you get right so you can go rescue others. You know. So you're right. Yeah, start rescuing people that are also in traumas that you've experienced and you've overcome and actually became whole and healthy. And you'll know that you're whole and healthy. The fruit will speak, you know, and if it's not good fruit that's coming off your tree, do some heart work and it always starts I'm just saying it always starts with anger. If you're angry about something, it's going to turn into bitterness. So deal with the anger.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good. And so many people. Last thing I'll say is so many people get stuck in that place and they never actually end up bearing fruit.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:So they're busy fighting against the thing that they were hurt by so much that they actually can never produce something, produce a fruitful outcome for people, and that's ultimately the direction that you want to go. You don't want just want to be always reacting and responding to the thing that hurts you. You want to actually be part of the solution. You know what I'm saying, so I hope this was helpful. I appreciate you guys hanging out with us today and we will see you in the next episode. Bye.