reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
The Most Effective Way to Find Hope According to the Bible | #reChurch Ep. 15
Hope can feel hard to hold onto, especially during tough times. In this episode, we explore how challenges can actually deepen your faith and why staying rooted in God’s promises is so important. Through real stories and scripture, we’ll share practical ways to build and sustain hope when life feels overwhelming.
What we’ll cover:
• How trials can strengthen your hope
• Insights from Romans 5 on perseverance
• The role of community in keeping hope alive
• Practical steps to nurture hope
• Encouragement for those facing struggles alone
Join us for an honest conversation about finding and holding onto hope.
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People are going to come against you all the time. You have to know what God has spoken and said to you and not let go of that thing, because the enemy's greatest tactic is to keep you unproductive for the kingdom of God, because if you are productive, lives will be saved.
Speaker 2:What were you doing practically to get you through that, to persevere through those times where you just wanted to be loved?
Speaker 1:I started off would get these kind of words that were extremely discrediting or discouraging or completely against what God had told us to do, would take them up for the Lord and let them roll off if it doesn't stick. But when it continued to happen over and over and over again, it's like almost like Person out there they're listening.
Speaker 2:They're going through a trial and a tribulation right now. People are coming against them. It's just a difficult situation. They're trying to hold on, to hope, but they feel like it's slipping out of their fingertips and they don't know what to do. In one or two sentences, in a succinct, condensed, simple way what would you say to them in this place?
Speaker 1:The biggest stealer of hope.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the ReChurch Podcast. If you're tired of business as usual Christianity and ready to live like Jesus, you've found yourself in the right place. I'm here with my lovely wife, Brooke Brooke, say hello.
Speaker 1:You didn't call me the right name.
Speaker 2:The princess. The princess. I don't know if you're getting sick of it or not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes, but not always.
Speaker 2:Not getting lame yet Cool.
Speaker 1:That's hilarious.
Speaker 2:I mean there could be new listeners. I just want to make sure everybody knows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hi, I mean there could be new listeners.
Speaker 2:I just want to make sure everybody knows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, hi, the title, that's Rightfully.
Speaker 2:Yours, yeah.
Speaker 2:But you know how we feel about titles on this podcast. Yeah right, well, I'm glad you joined us today. Today we're going to be talking about hope. Okay, and some people might ask the question how does that relate to the ReChurch podcast, organic church discipleship, how to you know previous podcasts we've had about the institutional church system? How does hope? Well, I think it plays a very important role because if hope is taken hold of and cultivated, it can actually, it has the power to anchor your soul and give you strength through tribulation, through trial, through difficult times and on the opposite spectrum, if it's not taken hold of right. We know that Proverbs says hope deferred can make the heart sick, so it can have the opposite effect on you. It can actually destroy you.
Speaker 2:If you've ever had experiences where you've lacked hope. It seems like you have no purpose, you don't know which way is up or down, you don't know where to go and you can't find the motivation to even sometimes pray or talk to any of those things. So I realized this morning, in my time with the Lord, what, not only what a role hope plays according to the scripture, but experientially as well in my life and, I'm sure, in years. In times where you've had hope, you feel energized, you feel good, you feel like you can do anything, and in times when you don't have it you feel stuck.
Speaker 2:So today we're going to talk about number one, the importance of hope, which we've just tapped on. We're going to talk about how to cultivate hope according to Romans, chapter five, so that, not if, but when you go through trials, you will have that hope, that anchor for your soul to hang on to to get you through.
Speaker 2:So I want to start by saying you know, a lot of people that have listened to this podcast have messages, messages Either they've commented down below or they've. They've personally emailed us During the middle of a transition outside of traditional church and some of those people are dealing with, uh, you know, different, different hurts and different things that they've.
Speaker 2:They've experienced, maybe rejection, stuff like that when making that transition, because people didn't respond to them the way that they uh thought you know was the right way or the way that was the right way in general, and so it's discouraged them. Way that they thought you know was the right way or the way that was the right way in general, and so it's discouraged them. Or maybe they got out and they thought it was going to be one way and it's another, and so you know what I'm saying. So it it, can you take me back to the time where, where we were kind of stepping out, maybe some of the first couple of times that we experienced like, whoa, this maybe wasn't exactly what we expected. Maybe. Here you go, here's a good example. Maybe you thought people were going to receive it well and they actually, instead of just not receiving it, they came against you when you were just trying to follow Jesus. I think a lot of people experienced that. What was that like and how did you get hope in that situation?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a loaded question, so give me a moment to process through that.
Speaker 1:Because, you know, when I first met the Lord, you have this zeal for God and nobody can take that away from you. You know, no matter what, and you know, I remember in the beginning of my walk with the Lord, um, I had somebody say to me like, oh, you're just a new baby believer. I was just as excited as you whenever I met Jesus and, like within weeks of being born again, I realized like I have to fight for this passion for the rest of my life, you know, because I don't want to turn into the person who's grown older and lost their fire for God or their purpose for the Lord, you know. So I realized that very early on in my walk that, like I have to fight for this, I have to fight to obey the Lord, no matter what I do. Um, so I have fought to keep that zeal and that excitement and that passion for Jesus throughout my journey. And then it goes into, you know, you're in the institutional church, we're leading worship. Uh, we're working with the youth where, you know, at the young Mary's couple, we were involved in everything.
Speaker 1:I feel like, uh, because we had such a heart for people to know Jesus, like we had encountered Him, and I remember during that time process the Lord began to speak to you and I about being missionaries going overseas and it made no sense in a lot of ways. We were unqualified, we had no ministry education, we had three little kids and all the things, and we were young. But we knew what God had told us. And I remember we received a phone call one day. We were looking into different ministry schools to kind of go through for training and someone gave us a phone number of a guy and I think you maybe texted him or reached out and said hey, I would love to sit down and talk to you.
Speaker 1:We're thinking about going with this school Like no, you've been there, Can we have your insight? And he called us and he gave you the most detrimental word possible. He told you that you were crazy for selling everything, that we should keep our house and use it as a rental property and have thousands and thousands of dollars in the bank before we even think about leaving the States and all of these things. And all we know God was saying was sell everything and go. And I remember you sitting in the we had a white leather chair at the time and you were sitting in that white leather chair and you, kind of like, got off the phone and you crippled over.
Speaker 1:You were just crippled and you were stuck and you were like, I literally feel like Isaiah, the prophet, isaiah whenever Jezebel, not Isaiah, yeah, isaiah.
Speaker 2:No, Elijah.
Speaker 1:Um, I feel like the prophet Elijah, like I just got a word from a prophet of Jezebel and it's just stolen all of my passion for the Lord. And so I remember speaking life into you that day and I'm like what has God said? Let's remove the word from this man. What has the Lord spoken to you? And you said he's told us to go, he's told us to go into all the nations and preach the gospel. And we moved forward anyways. And I look back on that conversation I'm like, thank God, we moved forward anyways, even though it went against, in that moment, somebody else's wisdom. It wasn't the wisdom of the Lord.
Speaker 1:Justin and I if you haven't got the gist yet are a bit of trailblazers. We like to go hardcore first, into things headfirst, and we're okay with like stubbing our toe a little bit here and there, we're okay with getting a little bloody here and there and all the things. And so we've had a lot of people come along our journey and tell us like, oh, god told me to tell you to stop what you're doing, or you're a ministry of the minister of the devil and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and um, or this isn't right. And I just look back on my journey and if I would have really heat. And there's been times. The words hit harder sometimes and you have to really weigh the word. But after you receive the word it stole all joy from your life, all hope, all passion excitement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point. So, because you don't want to be the person that just doesn't receive anything and is quote-unquote, unteachable.
Speaker 1:That's for another conversation.
Speaker 2:But you also don't want to receive a word from any little person, because you could be receiving a word from the enemy something that completely knocks you off track. That's a tough, tough balance to do 100%.
Speaker 1:So it's been trial and error. You know, I look back and there has been a few things that people have told me that I'm like, ooh, I wish I would listen to their wisdom, um, but then there's words we've been given that people claim is from the Lord, and those words literally like sabotage seasons of life, you know, and joy and peace and all of the things that come through the Holy Spirit. You know, can you get a word from God that is extremely convicting and like cuts you to the heart, makes you bleed open Absolutely, but those words bring good fruit. You know, these words that we were receiving were words that felt very cutting, but the fruit that was coming from the me, even entertaining the words, was not life giving, it wasn't fruitful, it was actually stealing. So that's how I had to kind of discern and like walk things out.
Speaker 1:And so I think that in those moments, realizing you're not going to feel lovey dovey during the process of sifting through those words, but like persevering through those things, and as you persevere, god begins to speak and confirm and you get to the other side and that's when hope's restored, not really necessarily in the midst of the wrestle or the transition, maybe you're leaving institutional church and it's costing some relationships because people think you're crazy and they don't want to go with you. And you thought they might, would come with you because they love you and they said they loved you or they said they cared, but really when push came to shove like they don't really care as much about what you have to say, now that you seem or look crazy, or maybe they would look crazy with going with you. So that's where perseverance and steadfastness begins and develops and character and development, all those things and patience. But it's not until you kind of like get to the other side of that moment in that trial, that you receive the hope that brings joy. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Like the refinement it does and I think what I want to do because you just laid out like a real life experience of obtaining hope through a trial, and I want to go back to the scripture of Romans 5 because it actually walks us through that process. So I want to show everybody.
Speaker 1:And I, really quick, want to say one note before you go there is this is something I'm still learning, you know this is something we're still grasping and growing in.
Speaker 1:I almost got tears in my eyes when I say that, because people are going to come against you all the time and you have to know what God has spoken and said to you and not let go of that thing, because the enemy's greatest tactic is to keep you unproductive for the kingdom of God, because if you are productive, lives will be saved. So you have to hold on to the word that the Lord gave you, but also be willing to be taught by the spirit First. John 2 27 says let no man teach you, but of the spirit. Let the spirit of God be your teacher. So if God's not speaking it to you and people just come out of the blue and they're like I got this word from the Lord, from you, and it's not anything he's, it's actually the polar opposite of what he's speaking to you in your secret place, like bless them, thank them, give it to God, but if it's not from him, be okay with throwing it out and let the spirit be your teacher.
Speaker 2:So that's so interesting. We have a scripture that says let no man teach you, you know, but yet the gift of teaching is the most exalted gift which blew my mind when you, you said that on our last podcast, when I was like wow, we call it shepherding. We call it a pastor, but really he's just a teacher on stage, and so that gift is so exalted in the church at large that it takes over everything. It creates the structure for our whole church system. That's right. Everything is based on the balance, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know. So I think you know. I didn't mean to cut you off on that, but when you're talking about that, I just get this picture of like being so unbalanced. If you exalt one gift over the other or you try to build a church on a teacher and not apostle and a prophet, you're going to get extremely knowledgeable people. But knowledge brings pride without application. So that's what where the church is at large is like. We have a lot of puffed up people, um, whether they're true Christians, false Christians, professing Christians, or they're just confused, or wolves in sheep's clothing. You get a bunch of puffed up people and we ended up doing more damage than good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I would even say that people and we end up doing more damage than good. Yeah, and I would even say that maybe some of them aren't puffed up, but they're deceived into thinking that what they're doing is the right model, it's the right thing and it's like because this is what my calling is, my calling to be a pastor, to do this, and so they're. They're literally doing it because they want to be faithful and they truly believe this is what God has called them to do.
Speaker 2:And just because you have a passion in you to teach God's people or to lead God's people doesn't mean that that position, that man-made position we created, is the proper outlet.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And so I think that's what a lot of people are waking up to and I'm glad you said that before about like we want you guys to know on this podcast we're not perfect and that's why we don't come on here and try to speak at you, or or it's not a channel that is meant to to go.
Speaker 2:We'll get deep theologically, but we want to talk about real life stuff in the application. So the stuff, the conversations that we have, of course, are going to have a scriptural basis. To our best understanding, nobody has a perfect interpretation of all of scripture, but we're not here to give you a Bible study.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can find those everywhere.
Speaker 2:A dime, a dozen right we want to give you. Basically, we want to stay narrow in the place that God has used us the most, that we have success in and experience in so that we can help you along that journey, and that's why, we're here, but this was powerful and this is real life and this is, you know, what I'm learning right now and what God has shown us and what we've been through in the past.
Speaker 2:So in Romans, chapter five, it's Paul's talking about justification, from chapter four on into five, and he says therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord, jesus Christ. So I was looking at this, I was trying to gain a picture of this, because we've talked about this with other people before, and that is, there's so many words that the Bible uses under the umbrella of salvation. It uses the word salvation, you have been saved. Right, it uses born again in John, chapter three. It uses justification right, you're standing before God, there's righteousness, there's sanctification, there's glorification, and you're like what is all this happening? And so I actually drew this little picture this morning when I was studying and it was like this umbrella and I just this is the picture I saw in my head Like when the umbrella is salvation.
Speaker 2:Salvation is is an umbrella term. It encompasses a lot of things. It's spoken of as past, present and future in the scripture. Right, you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved. You can find that all throughout scripture and under that umbrella of salvation are certain things that happen Now. The entry point to that is the born again experience right, when your spirit becomes renewed, when your spirit comes alive. So born again is that entry point right Repentance, water, baptism, faith in Christ, receiving the Holy Spirit, entering into the journey of salvation.
Speaker 2:That's why they call it the way in the early church in the Bible, and once you are born again, you are therefore, at that beginning point, justified by God. And this is what Paul is talking about here. He says past tense you have been justified with God. What does that mean? It means that we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. So we were at enmity with God, we were his enemies, and now, through the born again experience, through entering in to the family of God, we are now justified. So you can hold on to that. It's just a beautiful picture. And then sanctification. I have this line that extends throughout the umbrella, because sanctification is a process that starts at the born again experience, it starts at justification and it goes all the way until the end, which is glorification right when we enter into glory, when we receive our new bodies, when we meet christ face to face.
Speaker 2:And then it's interesting. I was looking at the umbrella that I drew in. At the very bottom there was a little loop, and I was like, oh, look, look at J for Jesus. That is true, jesus is the one who actually holds the umbrella.
Speaker 1:That's right, that's so good.
Speaker 2:And I'm sitting there, I'm thinking about it and the Lord is just giving me this revelation, and then I see rain coming down over the umbrella and that was a picture of his grace, because in a minute we'll read in Romans, chapter 5, that all of this experience, entering into this experience with God, is us standing in the grace of God.
Speaker 2:So I just pictured the grace of God like standing out in a rainstorm. That's so good. The grace of God is the experience of salvation. That's what we experience when we receive salvation, so I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, powerful.
Speaker 2:Cool. So verse two, through whom, speaking of Jesus, we have also obtained here. It is our introduction by faith, into this grace in which we stand and we exalt in hope of the glory of God. And I feel like if you read that, you skim over that. It's just like a lot of words and they're jumbled together and you're like what does that mean? So I had to sit down and break that down earlier. So it's our faith. This is where I got that picture. It's our faith. That is the introduction into the grace in which we stand. Here's where hope enters the scene. It says and we exalt in hope of the glory of God. And I'm like why is this portion of scripture exalt? Like, why is it putting hope first and foremost? Why not faith? Why?
Speaker 2:not salvation, why not grace? Why is it hope? And it goes on to say and not only this, but we also exalt in our tribulation. So it's like, ok, we exalt in hope and we exalt in tribulation. Stick with me for a minute, I know we're getting a little, a little wordy on this. But the reason we exalt in tribulations is this knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance, and perseverance, proven character, and proven character, hope. So there is the thread, the trail line of get you to point a to point B. And he says and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy spirit who was given to us, for, while we were still helpless, at the right time, christ died for the ungodly.
Speaker 2:So what I want to talk about and what I want to break down today, is that progression that progression that you explained earlier, that you experienced and that scripture takes us through, because I feel like, at least for me, I thought in the beginning hope was something you just had.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Like you get saved and you're like well, I really appreciate it, jesus, you saved me. I should have hope. Yeah Right, but hope seems to be this fleeting thing that it's like we have it one minute and then we don't. But the scripture here is telling us that there's a progression towards hope, like there are steps to get to hope, and the first step it talks about is tribulation.
Speaker 1:Lots of that.
Speaker 2:So, Paul, are you saying that? I mean, I imagine in other places of Scripture there's other avenues to get to hope, but in this particular portion of Scripture it's saying we don't get to hope unless we don't get to hope. Unless, Unless.
Speaker 1:Unless there's tribulation, why?
Speaker 2:do you think that is?
Speaker 1:Because I think, you know, I think, when I think about tribulation, tribulation can be many things right, situational things that come, and I think hope is in Jesus, which I feel like is that picture of that J at the bottom of the umbrella, you know, and I I think that until you endure trials, cause there is also a scripture that says if necessary, Sure Peter.
Speaker 1:Right, that that you can't really understand hope until you've endured those things. You know what I mean, Because I even think of Christ. Like he came to this earth, he had the big picture in mind before he even came right Whether or not he understood as a child, who knows but he understood that he had a purpose and his purpose was to do whatever he saw his father doing and to reconcile mankind. And like he literally says I came to earth to preach and cast out demons, to preach truth and preach salvation and to deliver people from the hands of the enemy. I think that's a mark, maybe. And he says those things because I think you can't really experience full hope until you've experienced something hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. Yeah, that's what the scripture says here.
Speaker 1:It's just interesting.
Speaker 2:I was thinking as you were saying it. I'm like. You know how faith without action is dead, dead. Yeah, so it's like it's not that your actions save you or your actions are your faith, but true, genuine faith will produce action. That's right. And then that's what James says. Is he's like I'll show you my faith by my action. It's almost like I'll show you my hope by my perseverance.
Speaker 1:That's so good and that's what I'm thinking Like. Can you truly understand hope unless you've gone through something really hard, you know?
Speaker 2:We talked about this earlier. I think hope is I think some people can genuinely have it. Again just like people can genuinely have faith before the actions follow because sequentially.
Speaker 1:There hasn't been time but it's hopefully developed until you've gone through something hard. Yes, that's good, it's matured, it's fully developed.
Speaker 2:So what that action does, of persevering through tribulation, is it validates the hope. God doesn't need the validation we need the validation.
Speaker 2:So what happens is we go through that progress of that progression of tribulation, however long it takes, and then in the tribulation, we persevere because we're trusting God, which which you said, you know, which it goes back to um, what are we hoping? In Right, you know, we're hoping in God, we're hoping that what he says is true, because if what he says isn't true, then we have no promise of all of these things. We have no promise of justification, we have no promise of sanctification, we have no promise of salvation, we have no promise of glorification, of resurrection, of future body of eternity. All of these things fall apart if there is no substance to our hope, which is what faith is.
Speaker 2:Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and so it's like this whole ecosystem of encompassing things. But the Lord knows that we have to actually experience something before we can actually fully grasp it. And it's so cool because it allows us, allows us to going back to connecting with other scriptures, it allows us to go through something difficult and know that there's something more meaningful at the end. Like what is it First Peter that talks about?
Speaker 2:through that, perseverance is the testing of our faith Like all this stuff connects throughout scripture and at the end, Like all this stuff connects throughout scripture and at the end, if you persevere, then it's like purified. Your faith is purified like gold. What does Jesus say to the churches in the book of Revelation? The promises are to who? The one who didn't make?
Speaker 1:it. Do you know what I'm saying? We were talking about this.
Speaker 2:The other day. Neil had mentioned something in his podcast that I didn't see in scripture. I had to look it up. I'm like where is that? He was like you know, you'll have new names. You'll have a new name in heaven.
Speaker 1:And I'm like where is that?
Speaker 2:And he does, he talks about. To the one who perseveres uh, you have a new name that you?
Speaker 2:don't even name when we get to heaven, it's pretty wild. So that made more sense to me when I started to look at that particular scripture. And now it's interesting how character comes into this, because it's not just, it's not just tribulation, it's not just perseverance, and the perseverance leads to hope. There's something else in the middle of that and that is not character, proven character, but again, who are we proving it to? Are we proving to God? We have good character To me.
Speaker 2:I read that and I'm thinking God knows, he knows our hearts like he knows we're proving to ourselves like that Well, we're just proving in general that our character is real, because you can say all you want like I'm humble. Or you can think that you're godly, you're humble, you're all of these things, but until that thing is tested, you don't truly know. Until Abraham actually did what he did. He raised the knife Like he didn't know that he would genuinely go through with it, and you had to trust God in that.
Speaker 2:So, it's just cool to see that a lot of people don't see the Bible as that practical of showing you the journey of how to get to a place. We just use all this Christian ease and we're like well, have hope in God, and you're like OK.
Speaker 2:And it's just this weird theory thing that we go back and forth with Right and again going back to why this is important and important on this podcast, is that not only is every single Christian going to experience this, whatever form of church you are part of, but a lot of people coming out of the institutional system and going into a more organic way of doing church are going to experience this for sure, 100%. You're going to experience this for sure, 100%. You're going to experience it through trial and tribulation that comes against you by the religious who don't agree with what you're doing or condemn what you're doing when you're just trying to follow Jesus. And you're going to go through it, when things get difficult because you're doing something that's new to you, old to the Bible, new to you, but that actually takes genuine work.
Speaker 2:Like the relationships take work. The seeking God takes work. Like all of this stuff is it's not easier. You don't do it because it's easier. You do it because it's what God actually calls us to do.
Speaker 1:Well, you do it because it's going to be the most fruitful thing to do Not necessarily the easiest thing to do.
Speaker 1:I think about, you know, having children it to do. I think about you know, having children, um, it's the most refining thing in the world. Having a child, you know, and I think that's why the Lord's like go, be fruitful and multiply, because he knows being a mother and a father is a challenging task, but it is the most rewarding task you'll ever do, um and the most fruitful task you'll ever do, um. So I think that's why, when we are pursuing the Lord and he calls us to do things that may be outside of the box of tradition, uh, it gets a lot of kickback. Because I'm. I just want to be really clear.
Speaker 1:Like, religion will be your biggest enemy in this walk of being led of the spirit. Things that are of the spirit truly offend things that are of religion. So those religious words or people or spirits will tell you this isn't of the Lord, or this is unbiblical, or you're heretical, or you're critical, or you're this or you're that, and it's like you have to again go back to. You know what God has shown you, you know what to be true and you have to walk it out anyways. And that's where that character is endured, because in the midst of that you have to forgive all those people and love them and I love them well, you know, and all those things. And I think once you've persevered through that, that's where that hope comes back. But again, like through experience, it's not during the trial, it's on the other side of the trial is when the hope's restored.
Speaker 2:I think one thing also in the scripture, in I'm sorry, verse five, it says hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us, and I think that's such an important piece not to miss, because that's what gets us through. Do you know what I'm saying? I was trying to think of earlier, like what, what actually gets you through, gets you to persevere, if you've not really grasped onto that hope yet to where you've not persevered yet, how are you actually managing to get through?
Speaker 2:Well there's this initial experience and encounter with the believer, where the Holy Spirit enters you, and this is what it's talking about. God doesn't. How do we know? How do we have trust and hope that God doesn't disappoint? Because the very first and most prominent promise of him was the gift of the Holy Spirit. And if he has deposited himself in you, that shows us that he's trustworthy with his promises, because what more could he promise than his own spirit?
Speaker 2:to live in and dwell inside you as a temple. So a lot of people miss that. We forget about that part of the salvation, the born again experience, as the driver of how we can trust God. Well, he's done two very, very big things that are already proven and have already happened. That is, he came down in human flesh. He didn't have to do that Right, and he lived his life and was crucified for us, for our sins, and so he has already proven himself. You know there. And then, just as he promised, the Holy spirit will be given and you will be filled with power. He has done that for those that will repent, believe and turn to him.
Speaker 1:Right, that's right.
Speaker 2:And so it's those things to me. I think that that that is why it says that hope does not disappoint. So there's a, there's a worldly hope, where we hope in things of the world, we hope in human beings, we hope this or that will happen. That does disappoint. I think that's why it's it's differentiating. It's like giving you a contrast Worldly hope disappoints all the time there's things every day. I'm disappointed in standards, that that don't get met. All these different things disappoint, but God does not disappoint so that's why we can hope in.
Speaker 2:Him. What do you think are if you can remember some of those trials I also can share too but ways that, or what were you doing practically to get you through, to persevere through those times where you just wanted to give up?
Speaker 1:I can tell you ways I didn't do it well that led to ways that made me have to do it right.
Speaker 2:That's not a perfect journey.
Speaker 1:No, it's not. So I think in the beginning, when, well, you know, I started off, when we would get these kinds of words that were extremely discrediting or discouraging or completely against what God had told us to do and we knew what he called us to do Like I actually, like, kind of, would take them up for the Lord and let them roll off if it doesn't stick, you know. But when it continued to happen over and over and over again, it's like almost like I begin to grow weary. You know, I'm telling you, weariness is a toxicity to your walk with God. That's why Jesus says don't go weary and doing good. But I allowed weariness to become a minister to me and I became weary, which then stole my prayer life, which then stole my confidence and being able to even hear God's voice and like draw near to Him, and I felt disqualified.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't until and really honestly, like I got really real with the Lord, had a small mental breakdown in the journey of that that lasted about a week and I got really real with the Lord and he reminded me of all the times he had called me to do things and told me not to stop and to not give up. And told me not to stop and to not give up, and it wasn't until I really got real with myself and with God that I was dealing with like I cared more about what people thought than what God thought, and so it wasn't until the moment that I, like, really let that go and was like Lord I don't really care what anybody else thinks anymore that I had the ability to seek hope again and that weariness began to lift, because weariness comes from your eyes are not on Jesus. And so I took my eyes off Jesus and I began to put them on what people were saying and thought, and I began to get tired because I got into my flesh, you know. So I think for me, getting restored back to that place was literally allowing the fear of man to like subside from my life and get my eyes back on Jesus, and honestly, having him tell me, hey, job well done where you're at, like let's go to new territory, brought hope as well. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:So I think also just listening to his voice and obeying those things brought hope back to my life, because it removed the weariness, because I began to like actually hear his voice again and like not be so self-focused, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So when you start to see yourself like like overanalyzing yourself and nitpicking yourself or worried what this person said and that person said that weariness literally takes away all hope, weariness and hope they're, they're like opposites, you know. So you can't actually get through the through the journey because weariness is like so heavy. I don't know if this is fully making sense in my mind as I'm explaining this, but, like in my heart, it's like I went from weary because all I could think about was how, how this hurt and it affected me, to how no God's called me to this and there's a world of dying people and Jesus is the answer, and I know Jesus lives inside of me. So it just was like a perspective shift, a focus shift. I had to get my eyes back on Christ and off of the situation and what the naysayers were saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, I don't know if that was the answer to your question, I think, just as Jesus says, the path is narrow right. And the context of that you know, speaking of, the way to Christ is narrow, the way in is narrow. I think also the journey of salvation is narrow as well and it's a path from from what I've experienced, that the lord you do different things on that path right you carry tools, you, but you're moving in one direction, right, and it seems like I if I could picture it like walking through the woods.
Speaker 2:There's all kinds of animals and sounds coming from the woods and there's even if you've ever been on a path and you're walking in, the path is pretty clear, it's pretty drawn out. But then there's this one like little path that goes off to the side and for a moment you're like is that the real path or is that I feel?
Speaker 1:like that's what?
Speaker 2:in my understanding, that's what the walk of faith is like, and every now and then you're just cruising along, you're talking to your whatever and you accidentally get on that wrong path and then it takes you a minute but you realize, oh crap, this is not the, this is not the way that I'm supposed to be going. You know, you turn around and you correct and stuff like that, but on top of that there's all these voices that are telling you go this way, go that way, go this way.
Speaker 2:And I think the hardest thing to do in your walk of faith is to discern the one thing, cause it's like to me I'm like gosh, I don't, I don't want to like, I don't want to tell you. It seems like to the person that's coming to you giving you information of saying no, you don't need to do this, you need to do this. And you tell them like no, that's not what God's telling me to do. It may seem like to them you just don't want to hear anything Rebellious. Yeah, but you're the person that knows.
Speaker 2:Well, I also have had a hundred people tell me different things, some of them right, some of them wrong in, and I am personally responsible to God to follow and do the things that he has told me to do, even if it looks unconventional. So yeah, to me and my brain, that's how my, how my brain works. And that journey, that journey of salvation, following Jesus, listening to his voice. But it seems like to me he doesn't, he doesn't scream for our attention.
Speaker 2:And I think that's intentional Intention, intentional for our attention. And I think that's intentional Intention, intentional. It's just like if you've ever had to fight for somebody's intention, somebody's attention, sorry, you realize at a certain point, when they're not paying attention, you're just like whatever you know, like if you don't want to listen, you don't want to listen. But I'm not going to sit here and dance and like shake bells for you.
Speaker 2:And I think that's what a lot of people expect with God, because he could do it and he could do anything to get our attention and I think he does sometimes, but in general, as a principal, he's not out there dancing for your attention because I think, honestly, his presence is a reward.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:And so the attention that we give him is not that he's any closer and any farther away in proximity, but it's our awareness of him Our sensitivity and so there's a reward for seeking him, because we become very, very we have a heightened awareness of his presence to what we were saying a minute ago is as I was processing kind of what you were asking and what I was thinking and trying to explain is you know, in the beginning, when God started telling us to do really crazy, radical things, like sell everything you own and move across the world, you know, to people who don't speak English or into places where it could be actually dangerous for you to share the span Jesus with people, and you start getting people saying like no, don't do this. And some people's motives were pure, 100% pure. They were worried for us, they were afraid or it made them uncomfortable. So they were saying things out of their own discomfort or their own fears. But I think what happens is is some of those words were coming from people that were not too close to you, you know. So you can kind of roll off the bat.
Speaker 1:But the enemy, if he can get into someone's heart and mind that's very near and dear to you and begin to speak through them, that's when it can kind of throw you off track. You know what I'm saying. So that's what I think we saw In the beginning. It was like a few people like outsiders not really outsiders, but acquaintances who you knew, loved God but like wasn't really much invested in your life. They're like, no, don't do this, and you can kind of let them roll off. But when it began to be people that like you really love and care about and they've spent a lot of time with, like it hits different. And that's where you have to really like again go back to what has God spoken to me and obey that no matter what, because I'm not accountable to Joe and Jennifer and Sally and Kara. I'm accountable to Jesus, you know.
Speaker 1:And so that's what I think I had to originally go back to and have to continue to go back to and not allow weariness to steal my hope, because I think these words God gives us, that are really big things that he's like hey, I really want you to accomplish this in your lifetime, or this is your purpose. It brings so much hope, and then it would be just like the enemy to come crap on your hope. So be prepared for that. Be prepared for somebody to come tell you you're crazy, you know. Be prepared for somebody to say, like you're causing division in the body of Christ or you don't love the church, you know, because you're stepping outside of the four walls and you're actually trying to just obey the simplicity of what church is in the Bible. Stick to hold on to that word, to the, to the word that the Lord gave you, because that's where your hope will come from as you're going through these trials.
Speaker 2:Staying focused. Yes, and if possible, we want to remind you. We don't want to make it sound like we're saying that this is just. You know one person don't listen to anybody. What God says to you like this, is done best within community, but a lot of people don't have that.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And so, um, but yes, the journey of perseverance and tribulation is much easier within community when you have people around you, uh, supporting you but it doesn't always work out that way, it didn't work out that way for Paul all the time, uh, you didn't have those people around him. And now, thankfully, we have technology so you can, can have people that encourage you from a distance. Um, so, for the people out there that are like I'm all alone and I'm the only person and nobody gets this, be thankful that you actually have this avenue, this podcast, like people to reach out to.
Speaker 2:that, you know, otherwise you could really think you're crazy because you could have nobody and have no communication or contact or understanding that other people actually feel the way you do.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Just a different way to look at it. I want to end with one practical thing and then I'll ask you one more question when I was reading this in Romans 5, I spent a long time on just the first few verses this morning while I was reading through it and I never understood. Brooke, I don't know if you still journal. Do you journal a lot? Okay, you are a big journaler. Journal a lot.
Speaker 2:Okay, you are a big journaler and a lot of people are and all my Christian walk people have been trying to get me to journal and. I'm like I don't want to journal.
Speaker 1:Like it doesn't help me. I'm like babe, write it down.
Speaker 2:But I think it was because people were saying journal your prayers and I'm like I'll just pray, I don't need to write my prayers down.
Speaker 1:I like to journal my prayers. No, it's cool and not go in and out of seasons of that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, if it works do it Like if it works for you it didn't work for me.
Speaker 1:It keeps me focused.
Speaker 2:I felt like I'm like I could pray twice as much if I wasn't right. Yeah, anyway, there's going to be people that out there that get that, some that don't. But anyway, I think I finally understood this morning the concept of why, why you would would do that. Uh, because it's an, it's a second Avenue of communication for what you're doing. So if I just think my prayers, that's one Avenue. If I speak them out, that's two. If I think about them, speak them out and write them, that's three.
Speaker 2:So there's something deeper that happens when you use different senses and different things to actually communicate something, you process it more.
Speaker 2:And I realized that when the Lord gave me this idea this morning and I was reading through the scripture and I was having trouble understanding how character connects to hope, and the Lord was like, well, why don't you and I use a laptop? So I typed it out instead of writing it out. But like, type out what you think it means. And so I started that process of trying to verbalize how I understood it and what it did was. It caused me to slow down and have to communicate it back to myself. And in the process of communicating it back to myself I actually learned. He showed me the true meaning and because I did that, I could then share it with you in a very, very simple way, in a very clear way, as opposed to just reading it and moving on. So maybe that's a tip that can is helpful for somebody. If you need to write, write. If you need to type, type, but take a portion of scripture, read through it and then try to write out what that means and how it all works together.
Speaker 2:I don't know I just felt like that could be helpful for somebody, because it really helped me. It really helped me grasp it and I was like now this is such a beautiful, beautiful piece of scripture to me because, of how thoroughly I understand it now, because I did that.
Speaker 2:So just want to give that tip and before you have one question, so you've touched on it, but I want to do this in a in a succinct way. If, if you could give a one, a one sentence piece of advice to a person who is currently going through a trial, a difficulty, a situation, persecution, could be all of the above, and they're feel like they're losing grasp of hope, what would you say to them?
Speaker 1:It's a heavy question. I'm still caught up on the word you said succinct. I don't know what that means. Am I saying it right Like?
Speaker 2:yeah, succinct.
Speaker 1:Like linked up.
Speaker 2:No, to me it means like condensed and clear.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. I was like I don't know what that word means.
Speaker 2:Okay, this has been our nerdiest episode, I promise you, because I've talked the most.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's an apostolic teacher of friends. He ebbs and flows in that gifting. So re-ask me the question, justin.
Speaker 2:Person out there? Yeah, they're listening. They're going through a trial and a tribulation right now. People are coming against them, whatever that looks like. It's just a difficult situation. They're trying to hold on to hope, but they feel like it's slipping out of their fingertips and they don't know what to do. And in one or two sentences, in a succinct, condensed, simple way, what would you say to them in this place?
Speaker 1:I would say first, start with like just reminding you you're not alone. I think the biggest stiller of hope, from my own experience, is when the enemy whispers. You're by yourself and no one understands. There are people who do understand, some that don't, but people who do, you're not the only one that the enemy is trying to sift like wheat right now.
Speaker 1:And, honestly, for me in those seasons, what brought me so much encouragement was knowing that I would make it through, knowing that God was faithful, knowing that it wasn't going to last forever and this was just a season, and knowing that on the other side of this, that season, something good was coming, going to come out of it. And, and the sad thing is I didn't, or the scary thing was is I didn't even know how long the season was going to last. You know, and I think a lot of times we just pray that it'll just be over with and be done with. But then I realized, like if I just rushed through it, I don't actually change. So just allow the process to take the process to fulfill its purpose, um, but holding on to the fact that it's not going to last forever that's good so I think that's what the word of advice I would give you, and just stay prayed up.
Speaker 1:Pray and what justin was talking about with journaling earlier is such a amazing tool for me because I as a mom and I think women maybe struggle with this more than men I'm sure y'all do too but I feel like for moms and women, we can think about a hundred other things at one time. I think for men, y'all are a little bit more well. For you, you're a little bit more one-track minded, I think. So that's not as hard for you potentially not all men, but for Justin particularly. But for you potentially not all men, but for Justin particularly.
Speaker 1:But for me I can be very scatterbrained. So writing down my prayers I don't write down every little prayer, but the ones that I know God wants me to focus on I journal them out because it keeps me focused, because sometimes I could be praying it's good stewardship. Yeah, I could be praying about my children and he's shown me something for my kids and then all of a sudden I'm thinking about lunch and what we're going to make and how I'm going to get it done in a timely manner, you know. So for me, writing it down is very, very intentional and prayerful, I mean, and helpful for me, and I also can go back to journals that I've had where I prayed prayers 13 years ago that are now being answered, and that just makes me excited.
Speaker 2:I was just. I'm sorry, I was just thinking about you're thinking about lunch. I think about some of the funny stuff that I think of like I get distracted with him. I can't remember what I told you the other day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like I was praying and then I was thinking about, uh, like dinosaurs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when it's early, you're like there's a dinosaur and he was like riding a unicycle. That's how my brain works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like what?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, yeah, but awesome. That was the longest sentence ever, but it was good. Thank you, it was a succinct, it was not. It was not.
Speaker 1:I can't do that. I don't understand the word and I definitely don't know how.
Speaker 2:to be sure I knew you couldn't, but I knew if I said it it would be half as long as it originally would be.
Speaker 1:True story Love you, love you too.
Speaker 2:So appreciate you guys. Thanks for being here and hope that was helpful for you, I hope that was helpful for you. That's right A topic of hope through your trial if you're in it or if it's around the corner, or if it's off in the distance eventually you will go through one. You will persevere, you will have faith in God. And guess what?
Speaker 1:Like Brooke said, said there's an end. Oh and there's an end. There's an end in sight.
Speaker 2:That's right so appreciate you guys love you and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye.