reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
What the Institutional Church Isn’t Telling You (And Why We Left)
Today we discuss many things the institutional church isn't telling you and why we decided to leave in order to pursue an authentic, Christ-centered community.
It's time to challenge the idea of leaders as the gatekeepers of the church and redefine spiritual success according to the Bible.
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So what happened with Moses is God actually wanted to relate to his people directly and they told Moses they're too scared.
Speaker 2:You go up and talk to them and relay the message back.
Speaker 1:Boom. Leadership becomes mediator instead of facilitator. What we're talking about is the healthy, organic way Leaders become facilitators. They point you to Jesus, they don't meet with God for you and dispel the information to you.
Speaker 2:A true way to facilitate the voice of the Lord is first pursue, holiness, the best that you can, with the grace of God. If there's anything in your heart that isn't holy, repent and then like, actually be still and silent. It's called a whisper, a still small voice, because it is still and it is small.
Speaker 1:Spiritual covering is a myth. A lot of people are probably tuned out after I say this. What I'm not saying is that you need to be not in relationship rogue, not listen to anybody and have no submission whatsoever.
Speaker 1:There's nowhere in the Bible that says you have to have an organization or a pastor or a leader covering Welcome to the ReChurch Podcast. If you're tired of business as usual Christianity and you're ready to live just like Jesus, which is a tall order and you found yourself in the right place. I'm your host, justin noop k and double op, and I'm here with my lovely, amazing, beautiful, magnificent princess of a wife, brooke noop brooke. Say hello to the people princess, that that's a new one. Is that the pitter patter I hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, princess. No, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:I'm great. Awesome, I'm great. It's late in the day, a little late in the day. Yeah, these people don't know what time we film these, but I'm feeling tired Different times late afternoon yeah.
Speaker 1:Feeling it, feeling that late afternoon slump. But we're about to get lively in here. I think the last episode I was talking before was kind of it was more of a kind of a laid back serious Some of our podcasts you're going to see, some of our episodes are going to be very lively and bold Things we're passionate about and others are going to be really kind of sweet, sobering from the heart If those things can mix together.
Speaker 1:But today we want to talk about something that we've touched on in the past, in past episodes, but I want to reiterate because I think there's something very important that we haven't touched on in that topic, and that is number one why we left the institutional church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:For what we're doing now, and then also the truth that I think no one wants to admit. Yeah, that's good. People leave the institutional church because they're hurt. That's the explanation you get it all the time if you start to mention or talk about it. Oh well, you have church hurt, that's why you left. So there's this stigma around people that have stepped out of institutionalized church, as if they left. The only reason you can leave is because you're hurt by people in the church and so you're running away from everything. But what I realize is that the reason we stepped out was because of truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, truth and fruit for sure.
Speaker 1:And here's that truth. So what we're going to do, I'm going to tell you the truth of why we left, and then we're going to talk about why it's important to begin the process. If you do step out of actually uh, you could call it deinstitutionalizing yourself, or really it's really mind renewal in a biblical sense, in scriptural terms, it's mind renewal. There are certain things that you're going to deal with, thoughts that you need to retrain your mind, that you've learned over time, and you do them not because they're right, but just because that's what you've always done, and it's what the people you've seen before you have always done.
Speaker 1:Here's the truth. I'll go ahead and lay it out. What we recognize is we started to realize that what we were seeing on sundays, sometimes wednesdays, basically in our institutional church gatherings, did not line up with what we saw in the Bible. That was the truth that was brought to us.
Speaker 1:That was the problem, that was brought to us that we had to deal with in our hearts and a lot of people are having to deal with. They're recognizing there is a massive gap in between what we read in the Bible, the way that the Christians lived in the Bible and I'm not just talking about first century customs, like they did this, or they ate this or they dress like this. I'm talking about the principles behind what they actually did, what took part, what they did in their gatherings, what did their normal life look like as followers of Jesus compared to non-believers and in the activities that we were filling the much of our time with in the church? Right, those things didn't line up so we had to begin to wrestle with that. Um, share a little story. I know.
Speaker 1:In the previous episode I think, I talked about, uh, the movie Shawshank redemption, where the you know you get to see this this really, really symbolic example of kind of what we're, uh, what we see in traditional church a lot of times, and that is for people who have spent years, or even sometimes their whole life year. People say I grew up in the church. Right, For people that have have done that, they are pretty much you're just like you were in prison. I know this is hard for people to hear, but you get. You get dependent on the system, what we would call institutionalized, and so the example is in that movie. There's a couple of the guys that are in there for the majority of their life, and when they get out, some of them don't want to get out, so they commit crimes to get back in. And it's not because they're like man, I just really want to spend the rest of my life in prison. It's because they've become so dependent on the walls that they don't know how to exist outside of them. That's right, Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so what I have found is that one of the first problems that we deal with, that we dealt with and that people deal with, is when you get outside the walls. You have this moment of like wow, I know, this is true, I know this is the right thing to do, this is very freeing. And then you immediately get into that place of oh no, my walls are gone, what do I do now? And so I feel like that's either a hard thing to admit and work through, so um, or people don't want to recognize that, so they end up kind of turning back. Do you remember ever like going through that moment of, of realizing, like some of the discomforts of not being able to rely on the system or maybe showing up to a meeting and not being able to. There's not a professional there with a prepared message. Message for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think for me honestly, like wasn't about the message in the sermon, it was more like child care, because when we started doing this we had three very young children and their boys.
Speaker 2:So they're extremely active Now. They're teenagers most of them, and like it was just very difficult to find things for them to do or learn how to include them and all of those things to do or learn how to include them and all of those things, and so I think that was the hardest thing as a mom, um, coming into this, like not having the luxury of childcare during um our meetings you know, so yeah, and those things are like this this is real talk. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like these are. What we wanted to talk about today is the things. If you could give a symbol of the walls that you depend on, so, in relation to prison, it might be like prepared meals.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You don't technically have to like work a nine to five job. You have no bills Right, right, right. But it's like do you want to be in prison so you can have no bills and no responsibilities? Right, right, but it's like do you want to be in prison so you can?
Speaker 1:have no bills and no responsibilities, right, right. And so these are some of the trade-offs we're talking about. When you step out of institutionalized Christianity into organic Christianity, there's more responsibilities that fall on your plate, right? It's also another example would be like moving out of the home. So it's funny when you're a kid, you're like you want to be an adult. And then you become an adult and you're like, oh crap, now I got bills to pay, I've got taxes to pay, I've got to get a job. Then you have kids and you're like now I'm responsible for other adults. Think about that. Think about that. So some people choose not to have children because they don't want the responsibility of caring for another human being. Think about that. In the realm of institutionalized Christianity, I don't share the gospel and make disciples that's what my pastor does because I don't want the responsibility of another Christian, of caring for another Christian, right, so I let them do it.
Speaker 2:You see the connection there 100%, yes, Like and is it easier?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Is it more comfortable? Oh yeah, Is it more comfortable.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, 100%. But what is the result of that? You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like I'm not saying everybody needs to have children, but there's also a blessing. Scripture says about having children. It's very, very difficult work, but your goal is not you don't have children because you just love doing difficult things. It's the blessing of carrying on to the next generation, of investing in something outside of yourself that is going to actually reproduce for generations to come. So you're thinking you move into long-term thinking. Short-term thinking is what can I get out of this? That's right. And how can this be as most comfortable for me? Benefit me? Yeah, right, that's the mentality that we learn in the system. You know what I'm saying? The crazy thing is in prisons and you're put in there because of something you've done wrong. That's right. The scary thing is institutionalized Christianity. We voluntarily put ourselves into the system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, and the thing about I think about the whole prison analogy is like it's like you have no freedom, your freedom's been removed. Even though everything is so simple and planned out for you. Your day is scheduled Like. You know what you're going to eat, when you're going to eat. It's probably the same thing as maybe not your best meal, but your favorite meal, but you, you get accustomed to love it, you know, because it's similar and the sermon it's yeah and it's like, but there's no freedom in that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you don't even realize you're in bondage until you get out of it and you're like oh snap, like now I actually have to swim.
Speaker 1:You know your floaties are taken off and you're like Ooh, like I don't even know what I would do outside of the system. So, yeah, but that's good, though it's like. It's like okay, yes, your meals are prepared for you, but you have these, these three choices of meals. So what? What you know? The analogy would be when you get outside of the system. The hard part is you have to learn to cook for yourself, the, the, the. The amazing part about it is you get to make whatever type of food you want.
Speaker 1:So you can actually choose better tasting foods. You can choose more nutritious foods. Like you start to your, your choices and your abilities expand. I think about it. I have a million analogies for this, but I think about like pets, like our dog. Sometimes you look at them and he's just laying around all day and you're like, oh, tough life. You live, right. You literally eat food, go outside and crap and sleep all day Right and have a little fun running around and it's like that seems like a pretty worry-free life.
Speaker 1:But how much effect can that animal have on the world? Right, you lose your potential of impact and so it's like what is worth it to you? A low amount of responsibility with a low amount of impact, or high amount of responsibility, high amount of sacrifice and a massive impact. And I would say Jesus taught us to have a high amount of impact. That's true.
Speaker 1:So I want to hit basically 10 major things that we've realized through our experience of things that we've wrestled with coming out of institutional church, the truths that were open to us, that we had to wrestle with and that we recognize other people wrestle with. These things are typical roadblocks that people run into when stepping outside of the system because they're no longer dependent on, like you said, one of those like childcare. What do I do for that? These are real practical things that you're going to be hit with a majority of them at some point when stepping out to actually be obedient to Christ in this, and we want you to be prepared for that, or just be aware, like I'm going to have to wrestle through this and I don't want you to go back to what is comfortable just because it's comfortable, right, and so I'll have you kind of speak on this.
Speaker 1:The first thing when I was thinking through this was first mindset shift was equating church with a building or an event. Sometimes it's not as easy as just leaving and meeting somewhere else to get out of your mind that church is not a building and church is not an event. Do you remember ever like wrestling through that or? Or? Or an example of people that you've discipled, that wrestled with that, like wanting to go back because they felt like maybe they felt like they weren't, they weren't doing what was required because they weren't going to a Sunday event.
Speaker 2:Oh for sure, I think I'm one person in particularly. I don't think I ever really wrestled once we left, other than the child care, because there was so much fulfillment and purpose. And when I was doing I'm like I was honestly thinking how can I go back, like how can I go back to just the mundane of you know what we were doing? Oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was very over it at that point. But I do think of people that I've spoken with and talked to and kind of discipled, that were highly institutionalized for, you know, 20, 30 plus years and they're like you know, I see what we're doing is is good, I see it as scriptural, but like I just miss, like being able to get ready and your Sunday best and, like you know, having worship and the social aspect of it.
Speaker 2:Um, because it wasn't that there was a lack of socialness in the group, because they're around like 10, 15 people, you know, when we come. It was. It was the environment that was created was more of like it's like a concert.
Speaker 1:So it's like you.
Speaker 2:It's an event, there's a different type of um excitement about it. Uh, they kind of missed that part of it, but they wouldn't change. Now looking back, they wouldn't change the intimacy and the growth that they've had in their life, you know, getting dolled up and going to an event of some sort.
Speaker 1:So yeah, and so that's good. So I also want to mention, like you said, this doesn't mean that every person deals with anything.
Speaker 1:It's just just from our observance and our experience you see somebody in your group in your fellowship, either you yourself or somebody you're discipling, is going to deal with some of these things, some of these questions, and that was one of them, and so how I handle those is I really just kind of press in to see where people's hearts are at and be like so do you think that's a good reason to go back to being institutionalized, because you miss the event?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I'm like go to an event.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:But that doesn't make it right. But these are some of the excuses we'll make in our head, or that the enemy will use to kind of get us back into our comforts is to say, well, wasn't it so much fun?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the one we hear the most. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you but the one I think we hear most often is I miss like corporate worship.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So in our community, when we first started to do house church or organic church, house church has kind of been hijacked and institutionalized itself, so I don't even like to use that organic church setting. We removed the act of like three songs and a message. Uh, because the Lord told us in the beginning, first of all, he showed us we were reading through I think it was me, I don't know One of us was reading through, uh, the old Testament. We got to the story of Abraham. I think it was me.
Speaker 2:Um, we were reading through the story about Abraham and as I was processing the story with the Lord, like I'm kind of a prophetic person, so like when I read the scripture, like I'm having dialogue with God, and I'm like the story begins to come to life for me a little bit in my mind, like a movie reel on this, and so I'm like pretending like I'm watching Abraham like walk up and I see him turn to his servants and I'm like watch him say, hey, me and Isaac, we're going up to the mountain to worship, but we will be back, but you cannot come with us. And they leave their servants at the bottom and they walk up and in that moment I had. This revelation was like he just said sacrificing his son was a worship to God.
Speaker 2:So, I had to sit with that for like five seconds and as I sat with that and wrestled with that and marinated on that, the Lord said to me so clearly a song is not true worship, Obedience is what is true worship to me. And I was like, oh my gosh, like so many people are in the institutional church singing songs with no faith because they're not even obeying the songs that they're singing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like I surrender all but you really only surrender 10%. You know, or whatever they may be, they're not actual worship Like. True worship is obedience to Jesus Christ. Like me and Justin were talking about this earlier today, he's like I'm like, the reason why God has angels singing around him at all times hallelujah, you know all these things is because we're down here on a mission. Like we're down here to obey the great commission. He's got angels worshiping him day and night. Like he doesn't need my extra song. You know now what I'm not saying is worship is wrong or it's not good. I know that's how some people really connect with the Lord.
Speaker 1:We listen to music, we sing music. We do that. I love worship.
Speaker 2:I love to think I'm America's next American idol in the shower and I love to sing to the Lord and he meets me in that place for sure. But it's because that song actually comes out of a life that is truly surrendered and a life of obedience. So I sing with a different conviction when I do sing. But there was a season in my life Like I felt like the Lord was like hey don't listen to any worship because like you've learned how to stir up your emotions in worship songs and so you think it's me, but really you're. It's a superficial connection. Like I want you to connect with me on a deeper level and so that's where I really went into intercession and like reading the scriptures and like actually like hearing the voice of the Lord, not just getting like a goose bump through a worship song, and like letting those experiences really transform me.
Speaker 2:And now worship comes from such a deeper, purer place than before, like I almost felt like the harder I sang and the louder I sang, like the more I was going to connect with God. But that was just me and my flesh trying to like stir up some kind of emotional connection with the Lord, that anything of the flesh is not of the Lord, but everything of the Spirit is. So emotions kind of have to be removed a little bit, you know. So that's one thing I hear so much. Is what about the worship, the corporate worship?
Speaker 1:Here's one thing that got me was thinking about. There's been times where I've gotten goosebumps, not like recently, but in the past. Think about before Christ. Have you ever gotten goosebumps or emotionally charged up from a secular song?
Speaker 2:100%.
Speaker 1:Or just like somebody who sings really good, really great.
Speaker 2:Yes, it could be Jingle Bells back. What's her name? Mariah Carey, and you're going to get goosebumps because, it's a decimal.
Speaker 1:That's not human, you know so yeah, or a movie that's right, right, that has nothing to do with Jesus. And so it makes you think you're like if I'm getting the same feeling there as I'm getting during my corporate worship that I think I need.
Speaker 1:Then how do I discern? And so what really hit me is because we're just this is the issue again. The issue is not music, the issue is not preaching, the issue is not teaching. The issue is when we turn it into a formula, to where we do three songs a sermon you know what I'm saying that then it becomes, becomes this is just what we do, right, and so we're always trying to have to create something out of it and then, we think like those feelings are god's, god's moving in.
Speaker 1:So how it's supposed to happen organically is that those things flow out of your surrender to god. So when we come together, worship might happen. But it should be happening spontaneously out of your obedience and your love for God.
Speaker 2:Do you know what?
Speaker 1:I'm saying In the same way as where we can like over prepare teachings that came out of our own charismatic gifting, as opposed to somebody asks you a question Like the most powerful I felt, god has spoken through me is sitting at a table across from one person and they ask me a really difficult question and the Holy Spirit just begins to speak through me and your sermon is taking place. You're teaching, but it just impacts. It's just for that one person. Do you know what I'm saying? And the same thing I experienced I was at. We were at a meeting together and a woman got up and she started singing and it was so funny because as soon as she started singing, I was like Ooh, katie, like we were at the same meeting but that's not the prettiest voice and it was the first time I ever experienced in my life.
Speaker 1:There wasn't a connection between the voice, the quality of the person's voice and gifting and the presence of God that I felt through my emotion. It was me saying, wow, that is not the best voice, immediately overtaken by the presence of God came over me because there was authority in what?
Speaker 2:she spoke.
Speaker 1:So I knew that woman was singing out of obedience, like she was in a place to where she was right before God and she was obedient to God. And it hit me and I'm like Whoa, the presence of God fell in the room and everybody in there was impacted Like you could not deny it. And when I saw those two examples in those environments, I was like this is different. That's what we're seeking after. We're not talking about eliminating these things.
Speaker 2:We're talking about letting them organically happen through the spirit.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, so hopefully this doesn't take us too long. We're only in number two. We've got 10 of them. Number two, the next mind shift Okay, reliance on clergy for leadership. So leadership is good. We believe in true biblical leadership people that are actually involved in your life and they're leading you by example. But believe in true biblical leadership, people that are actually involved in your life and they're leading you by example. But what do you think about? Have you ever dealt with people that struggle with not having professional leadership in place? You guys don't have a pastor. You guys don't have, like you know, whatever official deacons, whatever it looks like. Clergy for leadership, right?
Speaker 2:definitely, I think worship and leadership and tithing, those are the three main questions you get. Where does your money go? Who is your leader? And we truly, really try to let the Holy Spirit be the leader. Now, again, what he just said is so important to remember. We do believe in leadership in the sense of somebody's maybe farther along and they can coach and guide and facilitate things, but as leaders, like we're not the ones that are like it's done our way or no way, like we're just the ones that maybe give out some information and, honestly, like we left a whole community behind and they're doing it all by themselves because they've been properly trained, you know, so yeah, so definitely.
Speaker 2:I think that when people first step out they don't know how to connect with God themselves. It's still kind of they're in that Moses mediation phase.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Where pastor is the one who talks to God throughout the week and then he comes and like, speaks to me. And I know this isn't everybody in the institutional church because I know when I was there, like I was hearing God speak to me, I was like abiding, listening and spending quality time with him. But I think a lot of people that sit in this institutional church expect their pastor to tell them what is God saying, what's on God's heart, or what to think, or the 10 steps to do X, y and Z, because they themselves don't even know how to connect with the Lord. I sat down with a pastor's wife one time and this broke my heart. I walked away from the conversation, crying in my car on the way home, because we sat down.
Speaker 2:She'd been a pastor's wife for many years and I was telling her some testimonies in my life. And I would say God said to me, and halfway through the meeting she looked at me and she said like what do you mean? God speaks to you? Like I've never heard God speak to me and I'm like, oh no, like she's fallen into the trap, whether she's truly born again, which I question a little bit, because I just don't see the fruit in her life that the Bible says we should look for. I think she more like relies on her husband's salvation, which is really sad. But when she said that to me, I realized like she herself has fallen into the trap where she doesn't even know how to hear the voice of the Lord for herself you know, so, yeah, that's what I think I see happening is that it removes that earnesty to seek the Lord on your own and actually make it an individual relationship between you and God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but sometimes you're like what can we expect? What can we expect if we, if we built a system that facilitates that type of relationship with God meaning other people hear God for me? And then we get mad when people are like I don't hear the voice of the Lord because we talk about it. We say you should, my sheep hear my voice. They know me and they follow me. It's preached from the pulpits but nobody sits down with them and actually shows them what it looks like to hear God. They may be like am I just supposed to hear a voice from heaven? They may actually be hearing God but not know how to recognize it?
Speaker 2:How does?
Speaker 1:God speak to you? What are the ways he can speak to you? What does the Bible say about how he can speak to you through dreams, through other people? How to facilitate an?
Speaker 2:environment that allows God to speak to you.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean Like, let's just hit that for two seconds Like a true. A true way to facilitate the voice of the Lord is first, pursue holiness, the best that you can, with the grace of God. Um, if there's anything in your heart that isn't holy, repent and then, like, actually be still and silent, like it's called a whisper, a still small voice, because it is still and it is small. He will not be like a circus for your attention, like social media and tv and entertainment, like they're all screaming for your attention.
Speaker 2:They're loud, they're flashy, they're over the top.
Speaker 2:Like he's not that way yeah he only draws near to those who draw near to him. And so you have to kind of set the stage and first that's holiness in your own heart, a right posture towards God. And that doesn't mean like you're perfect, that doesn't mean you can have an area you're not aware of yet and so he's not going to talk to you until you're completely perfect. No, what you're aware of, you facilitate that. And then, once you facilitate that, get still and just listen, and that is the perfect concoction to hear the voice of the Lord.
Speaker 1:That's why it's called paying attention.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:It's because I realized the more attention that you give him, the more that you can be locked in to hear him speak. I heard somebody say before like you want to see God move, you want to hear his voice. There's a price to pray.
Speaker 2:That's right, so good. And prayer is not always you talking, prayer is just sometimes sitting and being just still.
Speaker 1:That's what you sent us, something on that the other day, me and the boys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're in a group text with me and my kids and it was a man. He was in an interview and he said why do you say think silence is the like strongest thing? He's like cause, silence is where you hear God's voice. And I was like it's the truth, like the stiller you are, the more quiet the life you live. That doesn't mean unproductive life, but quiet just learning how to get still um is when you hear the voice of the Lord.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I feel that's interesting, because I feel like maybe I struggle with that too. Like I'm praying and I'm always talking or praying in tongues or something like that. I'm always making noise and so I rarely hear the answer to my prayers in my prayer time. It's usually like I'll be working out or something like that.
Speaker 1:And it'll just be totally quiet and not listening to anything or or, uh, you know out mowing a lawn or something like that, and I don't listen to anything, it's just quiet. And then I hear the answer to my prayer or the answer to my question and you just made me think of that, Like maybe that's why. I don't hear until later.
Speaker 2:Maybe I would hear quicker but I'm just talking too much. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:So that's good, but yeah, the last point on that is is so good. When you talked about like Moses style leadership, you'll see a lot of the institutional wrong mindsets actually come from the old covenant type relationship with God, where God was utilizing certain things, certain structures, certain aspects of how his people related to him as a means to get them to another place. And it's so funny. He's like I didn't want this, but I'm using it as a tutor, just like the law, to get you to Christ, but what?
Speaker 1:we do is we reject Christ's way and we go back to Moses. We're constantly doing that. So what happened with Moses? Is God actually wanted to relate to his people directly? And they told Moses they're?
Speaker 2:too scared. You go up and talk to them and relay the message back.
Speaker 1:Boom. Leadership becomes mediator instead of facilitator. So what we're discussing, what we're talking about, is the healthy, organic way is that leaders become facilitators. They point you to Jesus. They're not mediators. They don't meet with God for you and dispel the information to you. That's the prison analogy of them chopping up and cooking up the food and then serving it to you on a plate. That's not how your relationship with God is supposed to be. You're supposed to eat directly from the chief shepherd.
Speaker 2:That's right, yourself, not the church shepherd. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:So number three uh, we've exchanged authentic discipleship, real relationships for structures and programs to facilitate discipleship. So we've been dependent on programs for discipleship. We don't know how to disciple somebody without a program.
Speaker 2:Right, just in the natural world. Yeah, that's definitely a hiccup that I see for a lot of people and it's so funny. People are like where do you even start? Like, what books do you use Exactly? And I'm like that. People are like where do you even start? Like, what books do you?
Speaker 1:use Exactly and I'm like that's the temptation is to go back to curriculum.
Speaker 2:Yes, like what books? What discipleship program do you use? And I'm like, what if I told you I just used my Bible and the Holy Spirit within me? Yeah, I know, but you get that all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So really where I start with people is the gospel. I take them to the book of Acts, I make sure they truly have been born of God and if they haven't, we walk through that process. If they're ready, if they're not, I continue just to meet with them and just talk about godly things, scriptural things, point them to the Lord, let them just process where they're at, what they're wrestling with, and after a few visits I'll challenge them again. Like, are you ready to surrender everything to Jesus? Like what does that look like? And a lot of times they're ready, sometimes they're not. If they're not ready, I'm saying, hey, well, these meetings right now, like maybe we're not going to meet every week, maybe we'll go to every other week or once a month. I'll connect with you until let God speak.
Speaker 2:But if they're ready to actually become a disciple, I do what the Bible says. I take them immediately, I go, baptize them, pray that they are filled with the Holy Spirit. If they need deliverance, we'll handle that there. And then after that I begin to walk them from the beginning of the New Testament to the end of the New Testament and we just start teaching them the different commands of Christ. But while I'm teaching them about the different commands of Jesus. I'm also teaching them about why they have been rescued from their sin and they're not just going to heaven. One day you have a return, eternal reward to inherit. So you're also not just, you've just actually been recruited into an army. Welcome, get your black paint on your face, you know, because there's a real enemy now that's got a massive target on your back to deter you. I teach them about the fear of the Lord. I teach them that they can fall away if they are not sober minded and aware of their surroundings and the enemy that lurks in the dark, and that they can go to Jesus for anything and Jesus is greater than any demonic power, principality, and that Christ is their source, he is the vine, they are a branch and they have to stay connected. And honestly, I take them to John 15 first. That's where I take every disciple first, after they've responded to the book of Acts, acts chapter two, the true gospel, and they're truly born again. I'm like I want you to sit with John 15. Believe it. Don't move past it until you have completely understood what it meant. Because when I became a disciple of Jesus, the Lord told me that I want you to read John 15. And I didn't even know how to hear the voice of the Lord. It was like this impression on my heart, like don't stop until you get this. 16 months y'all. 16 months it took me and I remember well, it was actually closer to 18 months.
Speaker 2:I read this verse, this chapter of scripture, every day and I remember there was some points I got so fresh I'm like what are you trying to say to me? I don't understand. I've read this every day, you know. And one day it hit me. It says if you love me, you will obey my commands. And I'm like that's how I love God, and abide and remain is through obedience. I'm not earning anything. He gave me free salvation when I was a mess and didn't understand what abiding meant. But now he's teaching me if you obey my commands, it will keep you connected to the vine, which shows your true love for me, just as Jesus obeyed my commands and stayed in God's love. And it hit me, obedience is the best again, the best form of worship. So then I started learning like what pleases God. What did Jesus do that pleased God so much? And I began to make those attributes of Jesus a part of my life Took a while because I wasn't Jesus.
Speaker 2:There was some refinement that had to take place and is still taking place. It took a while because I wasn't Jesus. There was some refinement that had to take place and is still taking place. But John 15, y'all is everything and then build off of that framework. If you can teach your disciple to abide and remain, they'll be the best disciple you'll ever have. Then discipling them becomes very easy because, honestly, christ becomes their teacher and you're just their facilitator they can bounce ideas off of and thoughts with, and you're their accountability partner and it becomes fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not like, oh, striving to get them just to do something. They actually understand what it means to be a branch connected to the vine.
Speaker 1:And he says right in there too, it's his, uh, his will, that you, it's the father's will that you bear much fruit, right, and you can't bear fruit.
Speaker 2:You want to know what God's will is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's that you bear fruit, but most people hear that and they go oh yeah, they try to force it themselves. Pop out fruit, that's right. And it's like can you imagine a tree doing that? The tree's laying on the ground, no roots in the ground, and it's trying to because people hear that and they're like oh, if you love me, you obey me.
Speaker 2:It's God saying like if you don't do what I say, or like that's how you love it. It comes from an intimate relationship. It's like a healthy husband and wife relationship. Like I don't submit to Justin because I'm forced to. I submit to Justin because I actually love, respect and care for him. That's why I submit to you. It's not because you forced me to. He's like the most unforceful person in the world, he's just so gentle. But I submit because I see His love for the Lord and it makes me love Him more, and so it's easy to want to submit to somebody like that because of a relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 2:I don't obey Jesus because I have to. I tried to do that for 23 years before I met the real Jesus. But then I had a real encounter with the real Jesus. I experienced his love and his forgiveness and his grace. Then I also experienced the fear of the Lord in that and that drew me to a place of like what actually pleases him Abiding and remaining and bearing much fruit. Okay, how do I abide and remain? I sit in his presence and when I leave his presence, obedience naturally flows out of me, not because I have forced it, but it's because I'm in a relationship with him and I know him and I trust him and I've seen him shown up. So why can't I trust him? I literally would run and leap and jump off of a cliff for Jesus. Like I was thinking about this the other day, like if the Lord told us we just moved to Texas I think most of y'all know that and like, gratefully we were able to bring our job with us to Texas.
Speaker 1:Like we didn't.
Speaker 2:Our job is mobile, we can take it anywhere, or Justin's job, it anywhere and or Justin's job. I'm a housewife, my job goes everywhere I go to, but but his job comes with us, it translates anywhere. So that was really nice. But when we went overseas we didn't have that, you know, and we had to rely, you know, on people saying they would give us donations. But we all know how that goes, like people flake in and out and it doesn't always come through and all the things. And if the Lord would have said, leave your job behind and come, and you'll have to just figure it out and start over new, I would do it twice over, because I trust him with everything in my being, because he's always been faithful, and out of that place is why I obey him.
Speaker 1:That's right, so good, yeah, and that's a whole nother discussion. But that's the healthy language of submission. That's right, even submission to leaders. So people think that when you talk about that or you say like this is not the way it's supposed to be, people think that you're rebellious or you're attacking all leadership and we're like no, we're just trying to fix your jacked up view of leadership because people get submission and obedience mixed up. So they think submission means I have to do with respect and do what my leader says. The problem is at the root of it and that's your. Your leader is not actually your leader. He's just a person that has a title and a position in an organization, and that's why there's no real relationship.
Speaker 1:And you can't, the person can't actually lead you, but you have to the the. The scriptures actually tell us to submit to one another. When it's saying submit to one another, it's talking about people that you're in real relationship with that.
Speaker 2:It's like a mother child relationship a healthy mother, child, father, child relationship.
Speaker 1:And so the the scripture submit to your leaders is really, if you look at the language, even in the Greek, it's yield, it's a submission, is a yielding, and when you yield, it's kind of like you're paying attention to that person and you're listening, you're weighing what they're saying and listening to their wisdom, because they've already shown you that they care about you, they love you, like you're putting all the scriptures together. The person that is your real leader is paving the way for you so that you can go further than them. That's right, and they've already proven themselves to be a faithful person that would lay down their life for you, right. Why would you not yield to them? That doesn't mean that you blindly obey them. That means that you really consider what they say, even if it goes against what you think, but you don't blindly obey them. You're like, wow, okay, I hear you.
Speaker 1:I hear you and if it makes sense and it's prayerfully considered and it lines up with scripture, I'm going to do that, even if it feels uncomfortable. So that's like the healthy type of yielding and in the word leader, those who have gone before you. We look at leadership as in leadership is this. This is leadership. I'm the one above you. No, leadership is like this. I'm paving the way in front of you.
Speaker 2:I'm going a little bit before you, so you don't stub your toe.
Speaker 1:I've done this first right. That's the same way with a husband leading a family, because you run into the issue where, well, there's scriptures that say believers have to submit to one another. So how many husbands like to hear that Right? What do you do? Does that mean you don't submit to a female Right? Do you know what I'm saying? It's like the Bible says submit to one another, yield to one another, consider what each other say, but as a husband, I'm called to lead my family, meaning I'm called to go first.
Speaker 1:Right to go first, not in position, but to go first to take the risks to seek God, to be the one that paves the way for my family so that they can safely come through as I follow Christ. You know what I'm saying. It's just this much more rich, healthy view of what leadership and submission is. The next one we actually already hit on, so we can kind of skim over this, but I'll mention it. So we can kind of skim over this, but I'll mention it. Number four is viewing worship as a musical performance. Right, that mind, the mindset of worship is purely a musical song. So when we don't have it, we're scared that we're doing something wrong because there's no music or whatever. And it's like there are different things that you're going to see in the new Testament that were principles, things that were involved in, uh, the day-to-day meetings with believers. They sang. You know, it's okay, it's not a bad thing, but it's not going to happen. Every single thing doesn't need to happen, every single meeting if that makes sense, so be spirit led in that.
Speaker 1:I don't. Do you have anything else to say?
Speaker 2:No, I think we kind of hit that one.
Speaker 1:We hit that All right. Number five is a very important one.
Speaker 2:I didn't mean to do that, but we hit it Um, no, uh.
Speaker 1:So number five is is the measurement of success? A lot of these things you'll hear people say it in the institutional church, but they don't mean it because they do the opposite of what they're saying, and that is, we don't measure, measure success by numbers, but everything we do is driving numbers. And again, that's not to say numbers are bad, it's just to say that is our, that's our measurement of success. We're not looking for depth because we don't measure it Right. We're not measuring death. Our measurements are how many people got baptized? How many people got saved? How many people showed up to this conference? How many people filled out this card? How many people have tithed? How much have you given?
Speaker 2:Everything is numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:So like, do you have any memory of that being an issue with either people you've discipled or anything like that of seeing oh here's a good example Sometimes fellowships outside of the walls of the church might dissolve for a purpose and that can feel like defeat because the numbers have gone down. What has the Lord showed you of examples of numbers going down? But it's still being fruitful.
Speaker 2:That's such a good point. So when I see a community, a house, organic community, dissolve, I think they should which I think we're going to touch on that in a different episode, like what to do when groups are certain years old, into a certain level of maturity in their walk. But yeah, when I see a group dissolve, I'm like, oh, multiplication, what I see as growth.
Speaker 2:Because if a group dissolves and it's not because of you know, lies slander hurt division and they dissolve because everyone's mature and we're kind of like, why are we still meeting here all the time and half of them are already making disciples and they're like pouring out. I see it as multiplication, just like my kids past a certain age, they're not going to come sit at my dinner table every night. They're actually going to go sit at their dinner table with their wife and their children because they have now multiplied. They know how to be a father now you know.
Speaker 2:So it's the same with a community of faith, like I don't think organic church, I don't think churches should go on for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, same leader all the way, praying into you, speaking into you, all the things. You should go out and take what people have given you, what the people have gone before you given you, and actually apply it to your life and go make your own disciples, have a church in your home. But in the institutional system we're taught the addition application instead of the multiplication application, which is what Christ commanded us to do to multiply, not to add. Multiplication is which is what Christ commanded us to do to multiply, not to add. So every time your pastor, you know, is up there, you add another member to the pew. Yeah, it might look good for a moment, but it's a very slow reproduction process when you're just in addition mode.
Speaker 1:So what happens is you just bring in another person. I don't mean to interrupt you on that, but I just want to make a point. What happens is you just bring another person. I don't mean to interrupt you on that, but I just want to make a point. Can you? And how we know God's way is multiplication is because that's how he designed his creation. Can you imagine if every single seed you planted, one tree in one piece of fruit, came from that Right, we would starve as Americans.
Speaker 2:That's how we function in the church is we're just add one, add one add one we're not thinking about.
Speaker 1:No, make sure that one has nourishment and everything's it needs. To make 30, 60, 100 fold. That's Jesus's type of multiplication.
Speaker 2:Like I don't still sit down and disciple the first five disciples I started with eight nine 10, 11 years ago, like they're doing their own thing and they have multiple children.
Speaker 2:They have grandchildren in the faith now. So I'm like a great, great, great grandma at this point. They are multiplying into the kingdom of God. Do I still talk to them and have relationship with them? Absolutely, we talk over the phone, through text.
Speaker 2:Now we're in different states, so I would see them once a month, maybe once every two months, and if something really tough came up that just challenged them or they needed prayer for something, or just you know me to cover them in prayer, of course I'm there for that. But I don't hang out with them daily. I don't talk to them every day. I don't babysit them. I don't ask them how they're doing anymore, because I trust that they're living in holiness, because I watched them do it for four or five years before they went out on their own. I'm not concerned about those things. I pray for them as the Spirit leads. I'm there for them if they call, but they're doing the thing and so you cannot do that in addition mode. In addition mode, it's just add, add, add, add and if one leaves, oh no, now we're subtracting.
Speaker 2:No, when I see someone actually go out, I get really excited because I know they're going to bear 30, 60, 100 of what I could do. You know what I mean. Oh yeah, so that's how I look at a group dissolving in a healthy way is then. That's one thing we told when we left. You know we were communicating with some people in our community that facilitate, like if, if they were to be plucked, any of one of those 21 people we talked to before we left there's a group of people we're really close with and we kind of personally have walked with. I looked at them and I said I'm so proud of y'all because if you were put into an unreached people group where the gospel was illegal, you would know how to multiply and within five years you would have a thousand people touched by the gospel or more you know, and so that makes me really excited and encouraged.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as a seed of the gospel, or more you know, and so that makes me really excited and encouraged.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because the seed of the gospel One seed dies, it bears fruit and multiplies. But we're chasing around trying to lead one person to Christ at a time, instead of thinking about a handful of people that we can go so deep with that, they reach thousands. We can. It's just a different mindset. And when your goal is different remember we've talked about this in past episodes when your goal is maturity, like Paul's was, then you're going to do different things than you would before, because your goal is different.
Speaker 1:So what we really need to do is we need to recognize what Jesus's goal is and what he commands us to do, and then we'll start to change the activities that we do because they'll facilitate Christian maturity, as opposed to numbers of people that raise their hand and pray to prayer.
Speaker 2:Well, I think too real quick. Last thing on that note I think of also like the institutional church is set up more like an orphanage. You have one dad trying to take care of 500, 10,000, 25,000 children, and one man can only give you enough to survive. That's right.
Speaker 2:But Jesus taught us, like it's a family model, it's a uh, an intimate model. It's a few, it's 12. Like you can take care of 12, cause it was a lot. I don't, I only have four and I'm overwhelmed sometimes, but you know 12, but you see, he really poured into the three. That showed him like, hey, I'm really here with a pure heart, poured into those. But like, when you do that orphanage type model, like you're literally just keeping them alive, you're giving them the just enough to keep them alive. But when you truly do life as a family, like they're not only going to stay alive, they're going to thrive you know, and that's the goal.
Speaker 1:So the next one would be getting out of the mindset of Sunday centered faith. That is like our Christian life is one day a week or two days a week. And then we live differently outside of that and so getting people out of the mindset of separating, compartmentalizing their faith, Like remember Jesus is in the top drawer, you know, and then families in the second drawer and stuff like that yeah, no, jesus is everything. Right, so what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think it's crap, just to say it real honestly. That about covers that. Yeah, I think that one's.
Speaker 1:That one's pretty clear Like Jesus needs to consume every aspect of your life, and most of the time you'll recognize that part of the walk of maturity, becoming more like Jesus, is letting him consume everything. That means your work, life your home life, your marriage, your relationship with your children.
Speaker 2:It says every thought, whether good or bad, will be exposed on judgment day. That's the kind of life you need to walk with Jesus that every thought begins to get surrendered to Christ, because it will be exposed on judgment day whether good or bad. So he's supposed to be that intertwined that even your thoughts are pure and holy and good? Have I achieved that? No, I'm still working on it, but that's my goal taking those thoughts captive and literally have him consume every part of my life yep so that doesn't, can't just happen on a sunday service?
Speaker 2:and that sunday service is like I'm thinking about. We're going on a massive hiking trip in july and we've been looking at those dehydrated meal packages. I'm kind of excited about some of them just to see what they're like, but I know after five days that I'm gonna be be like give me a home cooked meal, you know. And that's what the Sunday service is Like. It's like an instant pot oatmeal breakfast.
Speaker 1:Just add holy water.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know so. Yeah, you need some nourishment which comes through true biblical community and an intimate relationship with Jesus. Yeah, Every day of the week You'll starve between Sundays.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's true, the of a jesus? Yeah, every day of the week you'll starve between sundays. Yep, that's true. Um, the next one is a big one, it's a. A lot of people have a fear of losing spiritual authority or I'm going to say it, the word covering, spiritual covering yeah, I'm gonna let you start on that one oh my goodness sorry. Yeah, I could say a lot of things.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna let you start on that one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so a lot of people. It's almost like this nakedness you feel when you no longer have a connection to an organization. But what I realized after really studying it out in scripture is that spiritual covering is a myth. I'm going to say it, a lot of people are probably tuned out after I say this. What I'm not saying is that you need to be not in relationship rogue, not listen to anybody and have no submission whatsoever.
Speaker 1:That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying there's nowhere in the Bible that says you have to have an organization or a pastor or a leader covering you. It's wrong.
Speaker 2:It's not in the Bible. They can take a few verses in gymnastics that into saying that, but that's not what it's teaching or talking about. The word spiritual covering is not in the Bible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it's like. So people will ask the question who's your spiritual covering? And I'm like Jesus, Because you run into the same issue. Even if I were to say like, oh, I've got apostle so-and-so, or this pastor, he's my pastor. Okay, it sounds great and it makes everybody feel dandy, right, Because you've got this name of this leader, that is your spiritual covering, right? Well, who's his spiritual covering? Oh well, bishop, so-and-so. Well, who's his spiritual covering? Oh well, apostle, so-and-so. Well, who's his spiritual covering? Oh well, Apostle so-and-so. And who's his spiritual covering? The Baptist denomination or the charismatic Pentecostal denomination? And who's their spiritual covering? Jesus. Eventually, you have to get to Jesus. So it's like why not just let Jesus be everybody's?
Speaker 2:spiritual covering, like scripture says, that's right.
Speaker 1:Okay, and again, people are going to hear this and they're going to misunderstand it. But you are submitted to Christ. All I'm trying to do, with what I've understood the scriptures to speak about spiritual covering and authority is I'm trying to get people back to relationship and connection directly with Jesus. That is what he came to do. He came to remove that Old Testament system of having a man as a mediator, and I feel like ever since Jesus left, man has been trying to put a mediator back in place.
Speaker 1:It happened with the Catholic church, it happened in Rome, right, we instituted the priest, so we are told that we are a priesthood now. There used to be a priest in the Old Testament system that would mediate for the people to God. Now God says Peter says you are a priesthood of all believers, and the book of Revelation says we are a kingdom of priests and kings, and so now we have direct relationship with God and all we're trying to do is put more and more men in between us and God and in between people and God. You need this person, you need this person, and so it's a real misunderstanding.
Speaker 2:And the sad thing you're doing for those men and women is you're giving them a platform where pride can easily slip in and they can fall into deception. They've either put themselves in that place or the people who follow them that way have put them in that place.
Speaker 1:I was blown away when somebody sent me this because I thought this is the last person that I would ever expect to come out of their mouth. But it was a. It was a video of John MacArthur and he's behind his massive, biggest pulpit I've ever seen anybody have. That thing is like a dining room table and uh and she. It was like a Q and a and she was like how much authority does a pastor have over?
Speaker 1:a congregation or a member in the church and he was like none and I was like what? He's like none, I have no authority over you, you don't have to listen to me. And he nailed it. It's the only thing I've ever heard him say that I've agreed with. He said Christ has all authority and there is authority in his word. So as long as I am speaking the word of God to you, there is authority in that word that comes from Christ.
Speaker 2:But in and of myself.
Speaker 1:I have no spiritual authority over you. You don't have to obey me.
Speaker 2:That's right. So it's coming through the words of Jesus, which is what holds weight. It's not John MacArthur in and of himself that holds weight, it's the words of Christ that holds weight. So when he speaks those words, you should take them seriously, because it's the words of Christ. So take what he says and say okay, jesus, you said this. How does this apply to my life? Through that relationship with Jesus, he just might have communicated to you something Jesus said.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't make him any cooler than anyone else.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:He's just a man who loves the Lord, who maybe has been walking a little longer than you, who maybe knows the word a little bit better, and he speaks the truth to you. And then you go to Jesus and Lord. How does this apply to my life? What do I do with this? And now you walk in obedience to Jesus not to John MacArthur or Justin or Brooke or anyone else to Christ.
Speaker 1:Yep, and I've had people that have, like, challenged us. They're like, oh, they're not submitted to anybody or they don't have a spiritual covering. And I'm like they're like, who's your spiritual covering? And I start naming people that I'm submitted to in our, in our community, and they're like, oh well, they can't be out. They start putting all these like restrictions on it. Well, they can't be inside of the community, they can't be something you discipled. They can't be someone you discipled, they can't be, you can't be in relationship with them. Like where are you getting all this crap? So they've got to be someone that is outside of the community, that doesn't actually know what I'm doing. So they're my spiritual covering covering. So I can call them up once a month, share with them what's going on from my perspective, not tell them anything. And they're my spiritual covering. And now I'm okay, Cause somebody outside of my community is my covering, but they have no idea how I'm actually living my life Like it's a bunch of crap yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so next? I'm sure I'll hear about this in the comments, but it's the truth. So, number eight. We've only got 10. So we're we're getting towards the end here. So we've spoke, we've done I think we've done two episodes on this one actually so breaking the consumer mindset.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people still have the mindset of what can I get from the church gathering versus what can I give to the church gathering. How many times have we run into that mentality where we're struggling with, maybe, people that are in the community that are complaining because they're not getting enough out of the community, instead of having the mindset of how can I serve my community or the lost. Yeah, or the lost yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that when people start to talk like that, I realized they have gone inward and they have for lost uh sight of the great commission. Every single time. They feel unfulfilled in their life. So they start to nitpick what you're doing or others other brothers and sisters around them are doing, or how we don't do worship enough, or how we don't tie there, how we don't sing enough songs or do enough meals, or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:Retreats.
Speaker 2:Retreats or whatever. And what I see in that is oh, they've lost sight of the Great Commission.
Speaker 2:They're not fully content in their relationship with Jesus. They're not seeing God use them or seeing signs and miracles enough around them that they then begin to turn inward. And then, when you turn inward, you start to nitpick everyone around you because you have a big old log in your eye and you're trying to get everyone's speck out of theirs. So you need to actually get back into the end of every gospel. Read that. Get out of that mindset, stop looking at your brothers and sisters, at what they are doing and aren't doing, and actually go find somebody that you work with that's lost and start pouring into them and you'll get spurred up because you're going to see them get baptized or get deliverance or see them healed. You see that once, oh, you have all of a sudden forgot what.
Speaker 1:Bobby.
Speaker 2:Joe what color the church carpet is, or or what Bobby Joe said last week, or what they. We didn't have enough. We only had one song instead of four. You know, whatever the case may be, you begin to stop nitpicking because God's actually using you and you just don't have time, right, you don't have time to nitpick. So as soon as I hear those kinds of comments, it's actually a form of religion, is really what it is. It comes from a spirit of religion, it's a critical spirit that begins to nitpick why you're not satisfied in your walk with Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I need you to sing more songs, I need you to do this, I need you to do that. Like is worship in the Bible? Yes, sing a song from the spirit Is tithing in the Bible. That's another conversation.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it's in the Bible, just not in the New Covenant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and not in the New Covenant, not the way that the institutioners set it up. So I sit here and I look at those things and I'm like gosh, like get outside of that religious understanding. Like whenever I hear those things, religion is lurking close by.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it immediately ceases and stops multiplication and growth. That's right.
Speaker 2:And it turns the community inward and it just causes frustrations and gets people off the Great Commission. So get over yourself and repent of the religion, because most of this comes from the people. I don't deal with this from new converts who have never been churched. We deal with these kinds of conversations with people who were in church for 10, 20, 30 years and come into the organic church setting, who know that it's right but they still want to institutionalize it in some way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so next week just so you can look forward to this we're going to get into some specific scenarios of basically how to start and facilitate groups that are in different scenarios. What does it look like when you have a group?
Speaker 2:of non-believers. It's going to be good.
Speaker 1:I'm excited about this one Non-believers that are being discipled to Christ. Right, they haven't made that decision. They haven't committed to Christ yet. What is it? What about a group of believers that are brand new baby believers? And what about a group of people that are coming out of the, exiting the institutional church, and so they have this mindset? How do we work through that? How do we facilitate?
Speaker 2:that group Right.
Speaker 1:And we're going to talk about what are some of the pitfalls that you can get into. What are some of the roadblocks that stop you at six months a year, two months, two years in and you're like, oh crap, how do we get through that? So look forward to that. That's going to be a good episode. Last two things Dependence on programs for evangelism, meaning we don't go out and evangelize ourselves but we depend on conferences, meetings, the pastor and all these different programs for people to get involved in for evangelism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's just artificial. Again, it's an uncomfortable situation. It's not natural and people have this expectation it's supposed to look a certain way or be a certain way or, honestly, they're just there for the entertainment of it all, because a lot of these evangelistic meetings have turned into flipping circuses like all you can eat buffets and all you can drink coffee and all you can eat candy bars and you know all you can eat sledgehammer, competitions and this and that and music things, and then you will get you into the doors and play you a really overstimulating worship set that gets your emotions all riled up and your adrenaline pumping. And then we're going to be like, by the way, can you come follow this man Jesus, and you're supposed to die to yourself.
Speaker 1:Don't make a superficial choice for Christ, yeah.
Speaker 2:And if you keep doing that, you can keep coming here and we're going to keep feeding you and keep doing this and keep you stimulated and excited and pumped up for Jesus, you know, and all the things I'll tell you.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what a good test. Turn your lights up, turn the music off, preach the gospel and watch the spirit and then let me see how many people respond, cause they're going to be authentic.
Speaker 2:We can't.
Speaker 1:It's not that music is bad things, it's not that dim lights are bad things in and of themselves, but if we're having to use all these artificial means to create a fleshly environment for people to make a decision, can you imagine? Can you imagine Jesus walking out on the street? Just think about how silly this is. I know, I think about it. I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:What you just said is so good because I think about that. Jesus is like nope, I'm taking you to the desert and there's no food or water there.
Speaker 1:Hope you show up no music, no fog.
Speaker 2:Like, no, it's dry, it's hot, there's no food, no water. And they're like, hey, there's a little boy with some fish, like he did feed them yes, but only once. And it was a prophetic picture of I am bread, I am life. You know, like if you come to me I'll meet every need. But like what we're, what we're manufacturing is gluttony, lust of the eyes Like it's all sinful.
Speaker 1:I just, I have to say this, I just just picture this in your mind and then you'll realize how silly it is. So like Jesus is walking the streets of Jerusalem, right, and he's like, ok, he just got finished with his message. And he's like Peter, peter, do you mind getting on the keys for me? Okay, no, and see, yeah, okay, all right, andrew, andrew, hit the fog. Hit the fog, lower the lights. Can someone lower the lights? You know what?
Speaker 2:I'm saying it just makes no sense.
Speaker 1:He's like all right, everybody, all right With every, with every head bowed and every eye. Think about Jesus doing this stuff.
Speaker 2:we realize how silly it is, yeah, yeah. So let's replace the, let's replace the fog machines. Don't let me stand up on that one, right?
Speaker 1:Let's replace the fog machines with miracles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, oh, that's good.
Speaker 1:And the keyboards with the true gospel and watch. Less people probably respond, but more people who are authentic and ready to give their lives for Christ. Yes, that's so good. So that's the. That's the good test, last one, and then we'll close. I know we've gone long here, um, like a pastor trying to land the plane land the plane here Just finished my intro, um uh, number 10.
Speaker 1:So and this is pretty self-explanatory, but again, we say this all the time but really getting out of the mindset of seeing church as an organization, a corporation, an institution, and seeing it as a family, not just saying that out of our mouths, but treating the church like you would treat your family if you've got a healthy relationship with your family, but meaning I'll give an example.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give me an example.
Speaker 1:So maybe somebody doesn't feel like they're part of the true church because your church doesn't have a name, it doesn't have bylaws, it doesn't have a 501c3. It's not in the phone book or you can't Google search it. So they feel like man, am I really part of something? Because it's like I can't, I don't have a sign. Like people ask all the time, like I'd like to visit your ministry or I'd like to do this or that, but there's no name on it. Like in the early church they were just the church who meets in the house of Priscilla and Aquila, or the church who meets in the house of whoever. Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first thing that comes to my mind is like we had a situation where a pastor was talking about us at a mega church.
Speaker 2:Indirectly, he didn't use our name, so he was talking about our like what we do as a ministry you know, casting out demons, different things like that, like what we do as a ministry, you know, casting out demons, different things like that. And when we asked to sit down and speak with him, we couldn't get directly to him, but when we talked to an elder in that church, hey, can we sit down?
Speaker 1:and speak to them.
Speaker 2:They told us we weren't qualified because we were not truly the body of Christ.
Speaker 1:That mindset right there is just sad. It was like said in a roundabout way. Like he's not going to meet with you because he doesn't consider you guys like legitimate yes, and I was like ouch bruh, I've probably baptized more demons than you have. I definitely cast out more demons than you have.
Speaker 2:But what I'm thinking is like I'm completely disqualified because I don't have a ministry name, a ministry denomination, and I'm not under the covering of Bishop, so-and-so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm disqualified as a believer.
Speaker 2:But what if, when you get to heaven, you're actually that might be a probable statement? I'm not gonna say that, I don't even think it's a probable statement. But what if you're shining my shoes but you thought you had it all because you had 2,000, 4,000, 10,000 people in your church pews but you never made a disciple of one? So your reward is, and someone else who looks like they're unqualified's reward is so great because what they actually did can't be measured by man's stature.
Speaker 1:But by God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he looks at what's going on truly.
Speaker 1:But it goes back to and even like it's not, like it's like-.
Speaker 2:Clean up.
Speaker 1:if you need to clean up what I just said, someone's going to be shining your shoes, but in the sense of there may be someone that looks like they are not qualified or they're doing less or they're not doing what's right, but but you're really the one because you have. But here's the, here's the scriptural statement. It says the ones, the body parts that are less known. Yes, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Um receive the greatest honor, Right yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, just like it's crazy, it's crazy that the qualifications and standards people use for you to be considered legitimate. It is absolute nonsense and it needs to be talked about and it needs to be confronted, because I want to hear you answer the question what does it take to be considered an authentic local body of believers?
Speaker 2:What does it take to be a church? The Bible just says two or three gathered in my name.
Speaker 1:You're committed to one another, you're gathered around the presence of Jesus Christ, you're all born again. What is the minimum requirement? We'll say like probably most people would be like, well, yeah, yeah, that's the minimum requirement. But they don't recognize you. And if you're not recognized by the corporation, then they won't even sit down with you. But that's neither here nor there. I see, you know, a day uh coming where it really doesn't matter what the church corporation, it's the same thing that they dealt with in the first couple. The first couple of centuries was because in the, you know, in three in three, the around the year 300, when emperor Constantine was converted, they went from meeting in the homes outside of the walls of the church building.
Speaker 1:And now, all of a sudden, christianity was accepted in the Roman Empire. And now that's when it was originally institutionalized. And so now, all of a sudden, the government system took over, institutionalized church, and now you had to have professional clergy, professional speakers, professional choirs, fancy buildings, all of these things. And what happened to the people? Nothing could take place. That's what happened with the Catholic church was you couldn't even get born again. You couldn't even get saved outside of the walls of the organization, right? You couldn't read the Bible on your own, right. You had to go to this religious institution and be ministered to by professionals, right? And so that's where we end up taking ourselves when we become dependent on this institution.
Speaker 1:But going back to the main point, the main point was it was these types of things it was being confronted with the truth of scripture that caused us to eventually step out to seek for something that was authentic, that was real and that we could see actually looked like the pages of the Bible. That was the truth. There was too much of a discrepancy between what we saw in the Bible and what we saw on Sunday and we thought we could either continue to do it and deny that it's in the Bible or it's fairy tale or it was only for them, or we could actually seek what God has for us and say I don't care if the standard seems too high, I'm going after it because it's truth. And those 10 things we just discussed were the mindsets that we had to overcome to make it past six months, that's right.
Speaker 2:So, good Lots to think about.
Speaker 1:That was a lot this was a needy conversation that was a lot, so hopefully that was helpful for you, practical for you. If it was too much for you, rewind it. Watch it again at half speed and I hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Let us know your thoughts in the comments.
Speaker 1:Thanks for being with us today. We'll see you guys in the next episode.
Speaker 2:Bye.