reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
Why Discipleship Has DIED In The Western Church | #reChurch Ep. 04
Today we’re hitting BIG questions on why Discipleship has DIED in the Western Church.
In this episode, we will discuss how:
1. Entertainment-driven models of "Church" are a major contributor
2. How The Church is not a "hospital for the broken"
3. How we revive true discipleship that actually works
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But you're not helping the person that is giving you 25% and they're not responding and God's not moving in their situation. Love them. It doesn't mean you need to like reject them or anything like that, but that's not where you pour the most of your time and that's what Jesus did. Jesus said I only do what I see my father doing. So he was very intentional about the people that he poured into. And we literally interrupt the Holy Spirit's conviction and stop someone from genuine repentance. Like that's serious.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like open heart surgery. Like you know it's hurting, they just busted open somebody's chest cavity. But you come in there and you're like, oh, let me fix it sooner than the work's actually needing to be done. You know, the doctor's like I'm not finished yet. Why are you sewing it up?
Speaker 1:You know, and I was trying to stop the bleeding too quickly when he actually needed to bleed for a minute you know, goodness, once you really start to break this down, you start to realize you're like, oh my goodness, that is the model in the Bible, like we're actually doing the complete opposite. We've got the barn and we're opening the doors and we're saying come on in come on in, and then we look and we're like they're not coming.
Speaker 2:They're not coming, come on in, come on in and then we look and we're like they're not coming. They're not coming. What do we do? Or we start decorating the barn and playing music.
Speaker 1:That's the person that's going to stand before Jesus and be like listen, I've never. I never knew you, I've never knew you. And who's responsible for that? Welcome to the ReChurch podcast. If you, my friend, are tired of business as usual Christianity and ready to live just like Jesus, you have found yourself in the right place. I'm your host, justin Noop. I'm here with my lovely wife, brooke Noop. Brooke, say hello to the people.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hello. How are you? Doing today, I hope everybody's doing good out there today I'm doing great.
Speaker 1:Awesome.
Speaker 2:I went from homeschooling to here.
Speaker 1:I know it's awesome homeschooling to here, so I know it makes some crazy transitions. I was talking earlier to somebody and I was like man, there's like 16 things going on, different things going on in the house right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was doing homeschool upstairs. Justin's down here recording some videos and like doing a commercial and it's just the circus. We had painters here.
Speaker 1:Like everybody showed up at once, amazon guy barking.
Speaker 2:I'm like what is happening right now, but it was good yeah it was wild.
Speaker 1:So we've had some, some pretty amazing conversations lately and we're just getting fired up.
Speaker 1:I feel like yeah um, we've got some awesome stuff to talk about. Uh, you know, things that I think are really important and foundational. Um, today's topic is a really important one, real near and dear to our hearts, um, and that is discipleship. But we're not just talking about discipleship in general. It's going to be a little bit different. Different because we're going to we're going to talk about not just where we get it wrong in the church, but, um, maybe from a different angle, not even that we're doing discipleship wrong, but we might be discipling the wrong crowd, for sure, I think it's both.
Speaker 1:But yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Wrong crowd potentially too.
Speaker 1:We were discussing what we were going to talk about last night and kind of breaking that down a little bit and where we see the biggest need Because, honestly, our desire with this podcast is to really speak to people that desire. They're seeking truth, they desire authentic discipleship, like they want to see the real results and the real transformation that we read in the Bible. And I think kind of exposing a few of these areas where there's deception can be step one, being able to remove those things, to slide those things out of the way so that we can actually experience what we're looking for and that is Jesus authentically. We cover him up with a lot of things, we add on a lot of things and in turn we experience a very watered down version of Christianity. For sure I'm trying to think a good story. Tell me I know a specific instance, so you'll probably share this story. But tell me a specific instance where you realized the issue that we're having with discipleship in the church.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I know what story you're talking about, Like when you realize that we're discipling the wrong crowd. When did that hit you? Cause it wasn't always like that. Like you, you know the crowd that comes into church. Are we discipling Christians? Are we discipling unbelievers?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Okay, it took me a second, I'm like looking at him like I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, are you talking about when I was in the hospital? Yeah, okay, yeah. So I was in the hospital with, you know, a friend who was going through something super duper hard and I was sleep deprived, I really hadn't eaten, I don't think I had slept. So I kind of was like unintentionally fasting because that person needed me in that moment. So I was kind of putting my own needs to the side and like really trying to serve their needs. And so you would think in that moment like lack of sleep, lack of food, lack of all things, normal. You know, how do you hear from God? You know so, like clearly, but it was like the clearest moment in my heart. She was actually sitting there, you know, getting milk for her baby, and I look at her and I'm like I've heard in my spirit multiple times today, the wolves are not meant to be invited among the sheep.
Speaker 2:And I'm like I have no idea what that means, but I kept hearing it in my spirit over and over again and so I remember. A few hours later that day I finally got by myself for a few minutes and I called you and I'm like Justin, I don't know what this means. Help me like decipher. Is this God? I feel like it's the Lord, it sounds like the Lord, but what does it mean? Like wolves aren't allowed to be invited among the sheep.
Speaker 2:And you're like Brooke, I was just reading in First Corinthians about this and you said, I think what God's trying to show both of us right now and remind you, justin was like four hours away, three and a half hours away, in a different city. I'm in another city, we're not really talking much because I'm very busy taking care of her and he's very busy taking care of our kids, and we're hearing the same thing in different ways. You know you're in the scriptures. God's given you a revelation. I'm hearing this prophetic word like wolves are not men among the sheep. But I have no idea what it means and I'm like asking God throughout the moments. I could like what does this mean? And pondering it in my heart and you're like I think this is what it means. And when you said it it struck my heart like this is it? And I'm like read that scripture to me again. And he read it. Why don't you read what is it?
Speaker 1:1 Corinthians. I don't have the specific reference.
Speaker 2:It.
Speaker 1:It's, but it's talking about. You know what happens within the might be 16. It is 16. You're right.
Speaker 2:It's first Corinthians 16, where it talks about how you, if he, Paul, was given instructions to the believer on how to gather and like how to use your spiritual gifts and things like that. And he discusses in that, in that passage, where if an unbeliever were to stumble into your meeting and when I read that after Justin had mentioned it to me I'm like stumble in, Our stinking doors to our church are busted wide open for anyone and everybody the unbeliever's stumbling in. And it says don't speak in tongues, but prophesy so that his heart may be exposed and he falls to the ground and repents and kind of, in layman's terms, you know is what he's saying. And so what he's saying there is like it's not, it shouldn't be normal that unbelievers are in your meetings as of the church, as believers. And that was a big. I just was kind of blown away because at the time we were part of a mega church and it was like everybody come yeah.
Speaker 2:I think this is something that's going to take the whole episode to break down, because people are even saying right now what do you mean? Like we invite people in, like how could you do that the church is a hospital for the broken, like all these things?
Speaker 1:We're going to break down that whole mindset and show you where the problems are with that, and then we're going to talk about what specifically should be taking place biblically. Um, so it's actually in first Corinthians 14, all 14. Um, I kind of messed up or I couldn't remember the exact chapter, but it's where it. You know, and I had. I remember a couple of years ago I made a reel.
Speaker 1:I posted a reel about this, about unbelievers not being welcomed in the church or in the church regularly and people just that's not what that scripture is saying and I'm like listen, I had, it's a 60 second video. I had 60 seconds to build context to this.
Speaker 1:What I was trying to explain is, like this was the scripture that I read, that kind of like you know, set the bell off and made me think and I'm like well, if, if just think about this, you know, logically, if Paul is saying you know, if an unbeliever stumbles in, then that would logically mean that he's he's saying it wasn't a normal occurrence. Right, that's what I was trying to explain, and then I started to look further in the scriptures and see that it wasn't normal not only for, you know, unbelievers to gather with believers in a church setting. But hello, think about it. Think about it. If it's a church gathering, it's a gathering for the church.
Speaker 2:Hello Spirit-filled believers. This would be like common knowledge, but man, people put up a fit Well, I think, because we've been presented something very different and it doesn't match the mold of what we've seen. But have we actually looked at Scripture and see what scripture says about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you know, breaking that down a little bit, we have to realize that we have gotten all mixed up in, you know, our gatherings and how we gather and what we do when we gather, and stuff like that as to where we have combined all these meetings together. And so the church gathering, like we've expressed in past episodes, that's supposed to be for the training and equipping of the saints, where you come together to pray, to minister to one another to learn.
Speaker 1:There's teaching all this stuff. Um, we've combined that with the evangelistic meeting which we see in scripture was something where they went out. Like you know, you said earlier, the wolves weren't meant to be among the sheep. Now there is a. There is a scripture where Jesus says that he sends the sheep out among the wolves, but there's never a scripture where he invites wolves in with the sheep.
Speaker 2:Just like you wouldn't invite a pedophile into your home with your children, you know, like that's your safe place, you know so. So again, I think we've gotten the meetings confused and we've kind of blended meetings where, um, there shouldn't be blending, you know, I think that when the ecclesia comes together, that's the body of Christ coming together. That means spirit filled, born again, repentant, baptized, holy, ghost filled believers right Come together and they, they um repent, they uh practice their gifts, they are, exercise their gifts to one another, they welcome the presence of Jesus, they worship Jesus and all of these things. And there's this equipping of the saints that takes place. It's very sacred and holy what takes place in a meeting with believers. But you do see Jesus draw crowds but, like you said, it was key what you just said they went out to the crowd, evangelize the crowd, and it was the message of the kingdom that he preached. It wasn't, you know, teachings to the believer or breaking down how to have your best life in five easy ways, like it wasn't those things. It was actually a very convicting message of, hey, you cannot do this, you don't do this, like this, this, all these things of what the kingdom of God is, like the Beatitudes, pretty much getting down to the nitty gritty of what's in people's hearts, and it said most of them didn't understand, you know. And then the wolves or the not ready soil walked away and it says he was left with just the 12 and he revealed deeper things to them. So that's what the body of Christ is for, that's what the ecclesia is, that's what a church gathering is.
Speaker 2:A fellowship gathering is where believers come and they discuss the depths of scripture so that they can actually go out into the world being refined and walking in righteousness themselves and then go and set free whatever they need. So then you can go out and actually help others get free. But a lot of times what we're doing is we're all wounded in our own selves as Christians. Like a hospital we're just wounded, trying to figure it out, not getting trained and equipped. And then we're going into the world bringing in the, the, literally the bro, the most broken people who haven't even said yes to Christ, and trying to get them to like, listen to what the pastor has to say. But pastor Joe doesn't know that. Jimmy's in there, you know, and what Jimmy technically needs to hear and can God work and give a prophetic word to the pastor. Absolutely, but it's just not the best model and the way to do it and it's kind of like a little contrary to what the scriptures promote.
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, cause you've got a, you know, mature believer, been walking with the Lord for 20 years. You've got the immature believer just just gave their life to Christ last week. You've got the non-believer who's walking in, who's not interested might be interested, and then the most dangerous is you have the unbeliever who came in has been there for six months listening to sermons. Maybe they raised their hand one time, maybe they didn't, but they think they're born again and now they're actually being discipled as a believer.
Speaker 2:And they're really not born again.
Speaker 1:So that's where the danger comes in, when you're like why does it matter? Why does it matter? Why does it matter? Well, because there are countless, countless, very high percentage of people that are sitting in those pews, chairs, whatever, that are being discipled as if they've already committed and said yes to Christ and they've not. They've not actually repented, and so it's very dangerous, because that's the person that's going to stand before Jesus and they'll be like listen, I never knew you, I never knew you.
Speaker 1:And who's responsible for that? Like you know what I'm saying, that's scary. It's us who are inviting people into that environment making them think they're okay. Without really challenging where they're at truly out with Jesus. That's what I love, and I think there's the benefit of the small gatherings where everybody knows kind of where everybody is at Like if somebody comes in. So so, going back to that scripture, it doesn't say an unbeliever can't come in. It's not like if they knocked on your door you'd be like no, sir, you got to get out.
Speaker 1:You know, like that's not what we're saying. We're just saying, if it does happen, it's very, very intentional, Right. And so, like cause, we've had plenty of experiences where people have come in, you know, to the gatherings and they're non-believers or whatever.
Speaker 2:But or they're on the fence or they're just seeking. They don't know where they're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all of that is kind of addressed in there Like it's super open, like hey, and you know we're not going to pretend.
Speaker 2:And every believer in the meeting knows that we're there now to not share all of our mess and what we're working through, but like we're really intentional with, like meeting this person in their sin and like sharing the gospel with them and that there's hope in Christ and they can be set free from their sin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause, when he's expressing in that what takes place in that setting, when, uh, you know, somebody prophesies or whatever, in that person's heart is revealed what happens to the unbeliever.
Speaker 2:It says they were fall to their knees and repent.
Speaker 1:Right, they realize.
Speaker 2:God is present at that meeting and they repent.
Speaker 1:So what do they do when that person falls on their knees and repent? Do they continue to like sing worship songs and talk about your? Five steps of prayers, no, no, it's like in in that setting, they're able to actually respond to that person who's repenting, actually lead them to Christ, and that meaning is now going to be focused on that, and so that's what I love about understanding the setting and what's going on and who's there is because you can actually respond to the spirit in that way and again.
Speaker 2:What we're not saying, though, is that God can't do something in a church where there are unbelievers and believers. You know he can, because he's God and he's a miracle worker. He can work with nothing, you know, and create something beautiful out of it. But what I want people to understand is, like you have people going to church and they've been going to church their whole lives and they've never truly responded to the gospel. And now you've got them serving in church, you've got them working with children, but they're still dealing with sin in their lives, and all of a sudden, you wonder why. You know Pastor Joe is cheating on somebody with somebody in the church. Because there was actually a woman there that didn't know Jesus and was actually there to be a stumbling block, potentially, or she didn't even realize she is not actually.
Speaker 2:I'm that girl. Like I mean I've never cheated on anybody with pastor or anything like that but like I would go into church and I would cause chaos because I thought I was a Christian, because I confessed the name of Christ and I confessed that Jesus died for me, because I was taught confess and believe, confess and believe, and I'm like, by golly I'm going to confess and believe because I'm not going to burn, you know, and then. But then I'm smoking pot upstairs and all the other teen kids can smell it on me. They're wondering what's going on. I'm a stumbling block for them, like I shouldn't be there. I'm mocking the pastor as he's speaking, you know, and I'm just like it's just a mess. You, just you. That person becomes a stumbling block for the sheep in the flock and again I'm guilty. I'm not preaching from lack of experience. I was that person for many years.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, it's kind of like a. It's a message of, of hey, the same thing you would tell your kids. Like the same thing we tell our kids about the mistakes we've made we've made, we've done it, we've done it like this, and this is why it doesn't work. And this is the fruitlessness that happens from it. So let's not do that, like, let's not do that, so. So now we've got we. So now we've talked about the setting of what it's supposed to look like. Obviously, there's a gathering for the church, and what it's for.
Speaker 2:There's evangelistic meetings Right.
Speaker 1:There's evangelistic meetings or yet, as we've taught, we just encourage people to meet people where they're at. Like evangelize at McDonald's, Chick-fil-A, whatever we were at the pool yesterday and I'll talk to anybody.
Speaker 2:So I'm always like, my ears are always open to like who's the person of peace, you know, and sometimes you don't find one at the pool, but there was this two people sitting there and I'm like real quick. What's a for people that don't?
Speaker 1:understand that concept. What is that? It's out of Luke.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's yeah and Luke, and it talks about like finding. Jesus gives a command to the disciples to go into the cities and kind of practice what they've been taught like go into the cities, begin to tell them the good news of Christ, that I've come, I'm here, and I'm here to set them free of their sin. And he says, like, when you go into a town, find the person of peace. He says if you go into a home and they do not receive your message, leave the home and go to the home that does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, take back your peace, go to the home that does receive your peace. And then it says once they receive your peace, stay there with them and teach them everything I've taught you. And so that's how we go about evangelizing and it's sometimes it takes time to find a person of peace, and sometimes you may find a few people of peace at one time, and you're kind of having multiple meetings with different people and then or maybe you don't find anybody for a while and you really have to pray God, bring me to the person of peace, and then you have this divine encounter. You know, but I'm a social butterfly, so I'll talk to anybody. Justin is not that way. He kind of will sit back and he's like you catch him, I'll disciple him.
Speaker 1:More of a caterpillar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, you're the caterpillar, that's right. In the chrysalis, I'm just kidding. But I'm the social butterfly.
Speaker 2:He's an amazing discipler and teacher, but evangelism, one at a time, and he's a great he can preach the gospel, but I'm just walking up to a stranger is not your show. No, I get it, yeah, but anyway. So I'm sitting there and I'm just kind of like feeling it and I walk up to him and I just make a funny joke, at first about the kids, because my boys were like splashing around them and I'm like, oh, I'm a mom of four boys, it's a circus over here, and that kind of just got us into a conversation and I literally get to share my entire story. And I just share from the beginning like hey, you know that kid over there, you see that handsome 16 year old. Like I got pregnant outside of wedlock on a one night stand and I had to go find the baby daddy Cause I didn't know his name and all these things. And they're like what? And Either they can relate, they're encouraged because they're not that much of a hot mess, or they're intrigued, you know.
Speaker 2:So they'll ask questions and then I get to share my story and then normally, as I'm sharing my story, I don't spend a ton of time on it, but I always say like, hey, is there anything I can pray for you for? Like, do you have any sickness in your body or whatever the case may be, or is there a miracle that you need to ask from God? Because in Corinthians we've been in Corinthians a lot, if you can't tell, but in 1 Corinthians I've been there for weeks now. In 1 Corinthians, though, it talks about how Paul did not come to the church. With all these eloquent fancy words. There's my country coming out Fancy words.
Speaker 2:It's sad, y'all, when you move to Texas and people are like where are you from? I'm like, is it that?
Speaker 1:bad Dang. Does it get any more south? It'll just be in Mexico. I'm like this is terrible.
Speaker 2:Anyways, fancy, he didn't come with fancy words, fancy, fancy words and like super elaborate words.
Speaker 1:Eloquence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no eloquence of speech, but he literally came. He said I came very simply and he said I spoke few words and I demonstrated. So he spoke few words and then he demonstrated the power of God through a miracle sign, wonder, deliverance, healing, whatever the case may be. And then he says but when I'm with mature people, with the mature believer, I actually we go into the depths and the secrets of the things of God. So I'm like, oh wow, like maybe we over talk this thing sometimes. So I'll just kind of share my story so that they can somewhat find somewhere they can relate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a point of relationship and connection and that they can see I'm not this Bible thumper that's there to condemn them, that I actually was the worst of the sinners in a lot of ways and that I'm actually there like to share them, like there's hope in your mess. And then I'll be like, hey, after I share my story, like to share them, like there's hope in your mess. And then I'll be like, hey, after I share my story, like before I leave here, you know, is there anything you need prayer for? Like, do you need healing in your body? Do you need a miracle? Does somebody in your family need a miracle? What is it?
Speaker 2:And then I'll just pray and sometimes they get healed and sometimes the miracle sometimes I don't even know like one was like I really need land. And I'm like, okay, god, okay God, like she desires land, like show her that you're real by answering this prayer through my mouth and the testimony I shared about the true Jesus, and affirm that you see her right now and stuff, and and that just right there opens up a lot of people. And then some people can't or like, can I have your number? Some people are like and they're like you're crazy. And then some people are just like kind of neutral, you know, but it always it's never void.
Speaker 1:That's all I do know. Yeah, totally no, and I think um. I know this is not necessarily an episode on evangelism techniques. But it's so cool and it's so connected because a lot of people might say their quest. Their next question might be when you're like, well, if people don't get, you know, if you don't bring unbelievers into the church, gathering and let your pastor teach to them?
Speaker 2:or disciple them whatever.
Speaker 1:then what do you do? And like that's the answer, just let it happen naturally and organically.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to. People are so uncomfortable if they are not church people to go to church yeah, they're uncomfortable. It's like growing a baby in a pod. You know what I'm saying. Like if you walked into a room with a bunch of babies in pods, you're going to be like this is so unnatural, this is so weird.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, I can personally remember going into that setting, not as a Christian, and it was the last place.
Speaker 2:I wanted to be, I was very, and again people are going to be like well, you know, I gave my life to the Lord, that's how I, and I know, I know there are instances and stuff like that, but but the small percentage of people meet Jesus in those situations Most people, when you listen to their testimony, either you know something radical happened where God showed up to them, or somebody was just loving them really well at work, or whatever the case may be. Most stories are not like. I got saved at church, you know, or you'll hear the story. I went to church camp for all my life and don't know why I didn't change and then I had a radical encounter with God. Can things happen there? Yes, but is it the way Jesus modeled it?
Speaker 1:That's really what it's about. You can argue all you want.
Speaker 2:Sorry, I get passionate about this. You can argue all you want about like, oh, it can be done this way, this way, this way. But it's like, why modify the way the savior of the world did it? Why try to like, put a spin on it? Just do what he did, because you know what he always blesses what he did, so you don't have to go out there spinning your wheels. What works, just do what he did. He made relationship. He found good soil. When they showed interest, he said follow me. If they didn't, he was saddened, but he let them walk away and he prayed for him. I'm sure you know, but it says he intercedes, you know. So I think that, yeah, that's the best way to go about it is just do what Jesus modeled. Wwjd.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Back to that. Well, I mean he tells you when you want to talk about a verse about discipleship. I try to make it very simple for people Like, what is discipleship? Discipler is the word itself just means a learner. Right Right In the context we're talking about a learner of Jesus, and so even when we're discipling people, we're teaching them to obey Jesus, and so an unbeliever has to get to a certain point before they actually start obeying the commands of Jesus right, they need to enter into a relationship with him.
Speaker 1:They need to repent. There's things they need to do, but in Matthew 28, 19, which is the scripture that tells us what it's called the great commission right. Therefore, go make disciples, and he lays it out for us. He tells us how he's go. Therefore, go make disciples, baptizing them that's right and teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. So he lays it out there, so it's not like super difficult, it doesn't, but here's what we do. I think is we the.
Speaker 2:But here's what we do, I think is. The verse says to us therefore, go make disciples teaching them. That's the American version.
Speaker 1:You just stop at teaching, and we don't even baptize them half the time you know what I'm saying, like that's the scripture, if it's really quoted by American Christianity, go make disciples. Teaching them, teaching them, teaching them what I don't know, you know, just whatever.
Speaker 2:What's in the Bible but like not true obedience and application.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I want to go back to like, just the part of like what does the Bible say about discipleship? It doesn't say. It says look up, like look up, the harvest is plentiful, Now go into the harvest, right. It doesn't say like, open the barn door and yell for the harvest to come in. It says go out to the harvest, make disciples of the harvest, harvest them in the harvest. You cut them down in the field and then you bring them in to the barn.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:The barn is the church, the field is the lost. You harvest, we are the church. In the field, we harvest the grain, get them collected, bring them in Someone's got fireworks going off right now.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness, Once you really start to break this down, you start to realize you're like, oh my goodness that is the model in the Bible. Like we're actually doing the complete opposite. We've got the barn and we're opening the doors and we're saying come in, come on, in come on in. And then we look and we're like they're not coming. They're not coming. What do we do?
Speaker 2:Or we start decorating the barn and making it fancy, and music yes, yeah, and the. Or they come and you're like, why are they not fruitful? Well, because you're talking to them like they know Jesus, you know, like all of these things, and it just gets real sticky you know, but the message is always go.
Speaker 1:The message is always go, you're trained and you're equipped in the barn. If you will, it can be a literal barn. You know, church can gather anywhere. It can be a literal barn, that's right. You know, a church can gather anywhere, but that's what the scriptures say. And Jesus commands us to go amongst the people, amongst the wolves, amongst the world. Preach the message, lead them to Christ wherever they are.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Like Brooke was just sharing in that example. That's just an example of yesterday. This happens all the time, wherever we go, and it's it's very, it's very simple. When you just talk to someone, you don't, you don't come at them and be like hey, do you know?
Speaker 1:you know it doesn't have to be like weird and cold and awkward that you just start preaching at them. But what you realize is when you, when you start to obey Jesus in every area of your life and he consumes it all, the only the only thing I haven't talked about is Jesus. It is but the only thing I need someone to say is like oh, what do?
Speaker 2:you do. Where are you?
Speaker 1:from? Where are you from? What do you do for a?
Speaker 2:living. Why are you here?
Speaker 1:Because of the fact that we've obeyed Jesus and moving our family across the country. I can't not talk about him, even if I didn't want to, because people are like well, why are you in Texas and I'm like well, here we go, or what do?
Speaker 2:you do for a living.
Speaker 1:Well, here you go, any question becomes like an invitation.
Speaker 2:Why do you homeschool? Well, here you go, because my whole life is centered around what Jesus has commanded me to do.
Speaker 1:Like, if I would have picked this in my own flesh, I would not be homeschooling, I would not be doing none of that. I would be some fancy CEO somewhere, you know. So every question about every area of your life becomes an invitation to have a gospel center conversation, and the cool thing is is when, when it's the person that has has asked you the question and you're responding, they're much more receptive than if you're just talking at them. That's right. It's like you asked me the question.
Speaker 2:I'm like I'm just telling you my story.
Speaker 1:This is why and they're like, oh, okay, and so you can tell at that point whether they're really interested or not. But yeah, it's just an easy way to open up that conversation. And so then you just, just like Matthew four says, you plant the seed. You plant the seed of the gospel everywhere you go, and then, next thing you know, you'll start having run-ins with all of these people. Where you've planted seeds two months, three months, nine months ago, of a sudden, the harvest starts coming, and it's not. The cool thing is is when you're putting yourself out there and you're thinking more about evangelism taking, taking place in the marketplace and not just in the four walls of the church building. Then you're actually, you actually start reaping the fruit, that of others who have planted seeds and sowed before you.
Speaker 1:That's what Paul says you know some uh you know some, some plants, some water, but it's God who brings the increase. And even Jesus says, talking about reaping where you've not sown like he reaps where he's not sown stuff like that. So we're ready for those opportunities, but I feel like, in regards to discipleship, maybe most Christians aren't equipped or confident to know what to do if they run into those scenarios out in public or in the workplace or wherever.
Speaker 1:So it's just easiest to invite them into a small group to invite them into our church gathering and stuff like that and then let the pastor take over. But what happens again is people are really uncomfortable with that, so you get a very small percentage of people that will actually come or say yes, and then our wheels start turning and we're like all right, well, how do we fix that?
Speaker 2:How do?
Speaker 1:we get more people to say yes to that invitation, as opposed to thinking about serving the person like put yourself in their shoes. Well, if they're uncomfortable in that setting, then go to their setting. How about, instead of inviting them to your? Church service why don't you invite them over for dinner? Or, better yet, go to their house and say, hey, let's gather together, and you'll be amazed how deep you can go in a two hour conversation over dinner.
Speaker 2:That people will just sit down and expose their whole lives. Yeah, how many times have we had people come over and like, within the matter of 30 minutes, they're like weeping, like yeah, I'm a wreck. And they tell you their deepest, darkest secrets and then you can say hey, you know what Jesus died for. That Give it to him. You know, and then they.
Speaker 2:I think we baptize more people in the past seven years than I have in my entire life in Christianity because I just invited them into my home, or they invited me into their home, or I invited myself in, like hey, can we talk? Let's have dinner.
Speaker 1:I remember and this is not a boastful thing by any means, but I remember two funny statistics. We baptized somebody in our bathtub before we bathed in it. You remember when?
Speaker 2:we got our house 1,000%.
Speaker 1:And we probably baptized more people in there than baths have been taken in the bathtub. We've gotten in the bathtub, that's right, but it's just so cool to see. That was one of the things when we started looking for a house. We're building a house currently, but the previous house that we owned the first thing we looked in we're like is there a deep tub? Like a standalone tub. We're thinking about what that thing is for and it's just so amazing just to see that and know that that's possible.
Speaker 2:The house we're building. Now the tub's in the shower for the splash zone yeah. Now the tub's in the shower for the splash zone yeah, Because they can get a look right now We'll talk about.
Speaker 1:In later episodes We'll get into topics of ministry and deliverance and stuff, but as for right now, discipleship. So you know, what's cool is that's where it starts to organically kind of morph into this relationship, where then discipleship becomes you know that possibility Natural To where you understand, where a person's at. You understand if they're just cold to the gospel, if they're open to the gospel or if they're responding in that situation or scenario, what's next?
Speaker 1:Well, what's next is you then start to meet with that person regularly maybe one-on-one or whatever and kind of walk them through that process and then, before it's actually there, you know, go through the born again process and are invited into, like a fellowship or whatever, where they can be.
Speaker 2:We let them bear fruit for a couple minutes. Sure, you know, like we don't isolate them from the church, by no means. Like, yeah, if they want to start hanging out with people, but before we invite them into a community of faith, um, we actually want to make sure they're not like soil one, two or three. You know, we actually want to make sure that they're good soil or that they're not also just like deceptive, Cause some people can respond to the gospel with wrong motives. And then you bring them into your community and all of a sudden you're like why is destruction broke out? Why is chaos happening? Why?
Speaker 1:is drama going on?
Speaker 2:You know, it's because they actually weren't really genuine in their response to the gospel. So, like meeting with them one-on-one regularly for a little while and letting the spirit really show you, like has this person really allowed the seed of the gospel to go in? And like, like John the Baptist said, like before you come get baptized like bear fruit worthy of repentance, like let's actually see that your words produce action in your life. Because if someone confesses and repents, I don't care how emotional it gets or how real they get with you. Unless there is action after repentance, their repentance is false.
Speaker 1:Oh, for sure.
Speaker 2:So make sure they've truly repented, like test it for a while. You know that could be five weeks for somebody, it could be six months for somebody, because you're just not sure, because they're a little wonky, you know. But let them. Let them walk it out for a minute.
Speaker 1:I'm rereading the book right now, organic Church by Neil Cole, for the fourth time.
Speaker 2:Love it and I'm pretty sure we bought like 12 of those and gave them out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, one day I went to read it, I think the third time I was going to read it and it was gone. And I'm like how, how, how do I not have a physical copy of this book? I've purchased it so many times. But there's a spot where he kind of rekindled my uh understanding or or my memory on a thing that he talked about, that he said something that really hit me, and it was. He said don't invest in potential. And that's a statement where you're like what I thought that's where you're supposed to invest, he said, because everybody has potential.
Speaker 1:Invest where you see fruit Invest where you see God moving already and he goes through example by example of people that he poured into and then they just were fruitless or were not responding and he's like, if you continue to invest in it, it's like it seems harsh but you're not helping the person. That is giving you 25 percent and they're not responding and God's not moving in their situation. Love them. It doesn't mean you need to like, reject them, reject them or anything like that, but that's not where you pour the most of your time and that's what Jesus did. Jesus said I only do what I see my father doing. So he was very intentional about the people that he poured into, regardless of who was offended or who thinks oh, that's judgmental or that's picky I mean he gave the offer to the rich young ruler.
Speaker 2:The rich young ruler comes to him and says I want to follow you. And he said, well, sell all your possessions and give it to the poor and then follow me. And it says the rich young ruler couldn't do it because he had many possessions, you know, and it was too great for him to let go of. And he also talks about, you know, the man who's like, hey, what about me? And he's like, hey, come follow me. You know, I don't have anywhere to lay my head. And the other man's like, hey, let me come follow you. And he's like well, but I'll come follow you after my parents pass away.
Speaker 2:And he's like no let the dead bury the dead. Like come now, because the kingdom of God is now. You'll miss the boat if you wait for someone else or a situation to go on. And Jesus didn't chase after them. He didn't lower the standard. Oh, oh, oh to the rich and ruler just give half, let's talk about a third Like a desperate salesman.
Speaker 1:No, he doesn't do that.
Speaker 2:He says he let him go and he was greatly burdened. Absolutely, that's what I feel, but it's like I'm not going to put my energy there because they're not ripe. But it doesn't mean God can't do it at another time. So you put your energy where it's necessary and needed and people are receiving, and let God work on that place, and it's not the last time you might see that person, or God will bring someone else into their life. You know, hopefully that's not always the case, but hopefully. So yeah, just finding the reality that it's okay to like not chase people down and let them walk away and contemplate.
Speaker 1:I would go a step further and say it's better. It can be harmful for them. That's right, it can be harmful for them. I've made that mistake for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you're, you're really giving yourself, because you, you want it more than they want it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're enabling them honestly to stay where they're at Cause you're not letting them realize the reality of what it's like to not be fully committed. That's right, I have a funny story.
Speaker 2:So one time Justin and I were in a hospital and we were evangelizing to a guy and this dude was in a very sticky pickle and there was like a death situation involved. And he's like just condemning himself and feeling so bad and just like it's all my fault. And I'm over there talking to him like he's a born again believer. But he was not. And I'm like, oh no, it's OK, don't condemn yourself. Like blah, blah, blah, blah. And justin corrects me so ever, subtly but harsh in a good way he was like do not coddle him right now.
Speaker 2:He needs to feel the weight of his sin so that he will actually repent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was like he's right, like I was trying to, I would have never thought of that myself, but the holy spirit was like gentlest person ever, literally like spoke to my spirit and said stop her now, stop her now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so when I heard him say that it like the Holy Spirit, was like submit, because he's right. Like this, man needs to feel the weight of his sin right now, because his sin has put someone in a hospital bed. You know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, it was the hardest thing to do but it actually, like in the moment, bore some great fruit, you know, um so yeah you're, you're cutting off his conviction. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like the Holy spirit was convicting him. And you step in I'm saying you and Jeff, but we do this in general and we step in trying to literally interrupt the Holy spirit's conviction, and stop someone from genuine repentance Like that's serious.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like open heart surgery. Like you know it's hurting. They just busted open somebody's chest cavity. But you come in there and you're like, oh, let me fix it sooner than the work's actually needing to be done. You know, the doctor's like I'm not finished yet, why are you sewing it up? You know, and I was trying to stop the bleeding too quickly when he actually needed to bleed for a minute. You know, um, so that was a huge learning curve for me and I'll never forget that day and it has stuck with me the rest of my days. But it was a major learning curve, you know. Oh for sure.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so true, discipleship is not about just T. We talked earlier. We stopped the verse at teaching. It's teaching them to obey. It's about not only being a learner of Jesus, but learning and actually doing what he says. And a lot of times that has to happen in a smaller setting so we can actually walk with people and teach them what it looks like to obey Jesus. We can't just teach them with knowledge right. There's room for that. People are probably learning stuff.
Speaker 1:Well, you're a teacher, knowledge-based stuff, right, I'm a teacher, I like to teach, but also, uh, I you know it would be wrong for it to be one-sided and you just teach people knowledge and not actually walk them through what it looks like to live an active life. I want to run a few scriptures by you on discipleship and just hear your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then uh, and then we can, can finish up after that, but these are some scriptures that describe discipleship and basically qualify disciples when Jesus qualifies disciples Mark 8, 34. Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves, take up their cross and follow me. So, in a world that highly promotes self-interest, how do we shift our mindset to self? How do we teach?
Speaker 2:people to shift their mindset promotes self-interest.
Speaker 1:How do we shift our mindset to self? How do we teach people to shift their mindset to self-denial?
Speaker 2:Self-denial yeah, I think that starts with first. Again, it always goes back to repentance. You have to repent before you can deny yourself of anything. So walk someone through repentance, or repent of yourself if you need to, and then, after you repent, just just literally surrender everything to the Lord and whatever he asks of you lay it down and it won't be easy, it's gonna be hard, but true self-denial is saying you are Lord and I say yes before you even ask.
Speaker 1:This is. I think that's really good. I have another scripture, john 15, eight. This is a big one. It says this is to my Father's glory that you bear much fruit, proving yourself to be my disciple.
Speaker 2:Jesus says if you have no fruit, you're not my disciple.
Speaker 2:You're not my disciple. Yeah, john 15, the whole chapter is near and dear to my heart. If you ever meet me in person and you ask me any question, I'll say do you know John 15? Because if you don't, you don't even know how to walk with Jesus.
Speaker 2:Yet when I first met the Lord and I was born again maybe two weeks, I hear somebody actually gave me a book and it was about John 15. And in my spirit the Lord said do not move past John 15 until you understand it and you live it in every aspect of your life. I'm a brand new baby believer, so I'm like oh, I'm going to read it twice, I'm going to get it. 16 months later I'm still reading it and I didn't understand. I could not grasp what John 15 meant for 16 months.
Speaker 2:But one day it was like the veil was lifted and I could see clear. And it hit me that if I don't, and it hit me that if I don't remain in Christ through obeying his commands, I do not stay abiding in the vine and I will be cut off and I will be tossed into the fire to be burned. And it was like a flash before my eyes. That was my entire life. I made these professions of faith, but I never remained, which it says. If you remain, you will obey what I commanded, just as my father has commanded me to do, and I've obeyed his will and it wrecked me. So if you are not willing to first repent and then learn how to abide in the righteousness of Christ Jesus through the power of the Holy Spirit, which entails obedience to the Father, you're not a disciple of Jesus. If you don't obey the words of Jesus, you don't know him First. John three says that very clearly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we're not talking about like perfection as in you can't make mistakes, but some people are just flat out unwilling to obey. That's right, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And bear no fruit, and we think that fruitless Christianity is still. It's still okay. Again, it's not about getting in works and pushing out fruit. No, that's what John 15 says. It says connect it to the vine.
Speaker 2:It's the litmus test.
Speaker 1:If you're not bearing fruit. You just need to check your connection. Yeah, your connection is just off. And get your connection back into that outlet Right you don't try to force out some fruit.
Speaker 2:If that the little buttons popped out, you know, and you got to go push it back in so the outlet will get some juice again. Like you're going to go do that, so like some people they're just they're plugged into the wrong outlet so there's no fruit coming out, you know um or there's bad yeah. Or they put the wrong plug in. You know, um, but there's always just like recalibrate. Get connected to the right source Christ, the full gospel and move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got two more scriptures, Okay. Second to last one Luke 14, 27,. Whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. And my follow-up question would be why do you think carrying our cross Well, what does it mean and why is it so essential to be in a disciple?
Speaker 2:I think carrying the crosses um. What that truly means is you're literally taking the shame of Christ that he walked on the earth and bared to the world. You're taking up um reputation reputation. You're taking up humiliation. It literally says in first John uh and and John 15 that you just quoted. It says the world will hate you because it hated me first. So when the disciples heard take up your cross, they didn't picture like a cross around your neck as like oh, I'm a Christian.
Speaker 1:I don't mean to cut you off, but you just said the word disciple wrong. But I had a revelation Die Cyple.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that how I said it? Yeah, but like, but like it made me think like a disciple must be ready to die.
Speaker 1:That should be a t-shirt like die slash disciple Hashtag merge I'm just making.
Speaker 2:But I think about John 15, he says that to them like hey, the world's going to hate you because you're no longer of the world. It says because you've been cleansed, so now you're an alien to this world, and if they don't receive your message it's because they didn't receive my message. So when you pick up your cross again, it's not a chain around the neck, that doesn't mean you're a Christian.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, Not a bumper sticker.
Speaker 2:Right, it actually means you carry your cross. It's so funny In the early church, the cross was a very offensive symbol. They didn't walk around with crosses in their homes which I have a cross in our home but they don't walk around with crosses in their homes which I have a cross in our home but they don't walk around with crosses around their necks as like this thing, like it was a. It's actually was disgusting to them because their savior died a very horrific, the most horrific death you could die. So to them it was like not a cool thing, you know, because they knew what it meant to like actually carry the cross. And it really meant like you have to live the life Jesus lived, which means there's going to be persecution, there's going to be rejection, there's going to be slander, there's going to be gossip, there even may be physical abuse, being put in jail, being kicked out of a country, being homeless, being abandoned, being poor, being rich. I mean, I don't know. It gives so many. Paul gives so many examples. He said I've lived with a lot, I've lived with none. You know all All these examples, you see. But the main thing is, are you even willing to lay your life down for this gospel and we had to wrestle with that ourselves. Are you willing to die for this, jesus?
Speaker 2:And I'm a very passionate follower of Jesus and I'm very bold about my faith and I've told the Lord I'm like I better not go out because I'm jaywalking, getting hit by a car or in a car accident because I forget where my seatbelt.
Speaker 2:Like I want to go out with a purpose or I want to die at 99 in my bed beside my boo, peacefully. What are the two, lord? Like I either want to go out like fully spent at 99 years old and I laid my life down and I'm bringing multiple people into the kingdom, or I want to go out like bloody, battered and bruised because I'm like fighting for this gospel. You know, because we lived in countries where conversion was illegal, you know, to baptize someone and we had to weigh that option. Like, are we okay if our kids get taken from us or we go to jail or we get, you know, hurt or harmed or lose our lives? Like I'm cool with that and you kind of have to like really wrestle through that thing, that to be a true disciple of Christ. Like are you willing to lose your reputation or even your life?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, luke mentions that too. It's called counting the cost.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Jesus talks about it, and it's not just counting the cost of in the Western world. It's kind of hard to say like many, many Christians will have to die for their faith.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It still does happen here. But I'm not one of those people that are like putting Western Christians down because they're, they're not, they don't have opportunities to be murdered for their faith. Um, because honestly, like I've talked to missionaries who were like you know, I would rather somebody hit me in the face with a rock than slander me behind my back. And so a lot of times, the what Christians in the West will have to deal with when truly obeying and following.
Speaker 1:Jesus is the slander, the false accusations, the religious coming after you, just like the Pharisees did, uh, trying to destroy you in that way, and sometimes it's I'm not comparing, you know well, they're just gaslighting you.
Speaker 2:That's what they're doing, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's, it's still, it's still something that you need to, to pick up your cross for you. You need to be willing to lose your reputation and pick up your cross for you.
Speaker 2:You need to be willing to lose your reputation, and that's hard to do, y'all.
Speaker 1:You don't think it's hard until it happens to you. Well, because it comes from the people you least expect.
Speaker 2:That's right. And it's hard, because I remember when we lived in Nepal, which is the country we were in, that is, you're not really supposed to be converting or baptizing people. So we'd like secretly stink them into our house and baptize them in our our bathroom. Um, but we, when we were there, the Lord told us to come back to North Carolina, which was a shocker, because we left there thinking we might not ever come back to.
Speaker 1:America.
Speaker 2:You know, that's the mindset we left with Um, or we'd at least be there for many, many, many, many years. You know was kind of the mindset we had. And after being there six, seven months, we're like the Lord's, like hey, it's time to go back and I'm like what? Like I'm just getting started. We had just baptized, like genuinely baptized, our first disciple. We had discipled a few others who had been kind of somebody else had watered on their ground and like scattered, and we kind of got to walk with them and uh, and I'm like I don't want to go, like I don't want to go, like I don't want to go back to the place where they have a church on every corner and they have literally resources at their fingertips but they don't use them or obey anything that they hear.
Speaker 2:Um and the Lord told us he shared with us in a vision he spoke to me, but I shared it with Justin like hey, when we go back, we're going to be like heavily persecuted. And I was like I didn't, I didn't fully like grasp it because I didn't at the time. We were missionaries, so we're kind of applauded for doing the like, the laying their life down, part Like wow, like this is really honorable. But then you come home, back to America, your hometown, and you're like, by the way, we're actually going to flip things upside down and we're going to talk about, like the way we're doing church is not actually biblical Pastors are not Christians around here need to get saved.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, like it's not biblical.
Speaker 2:And hey, we actually are going to confront your demons, because we've been slaying some demons, you know, and we're ready to slay some here as well and we're going to talk about your anxiety and your unforgiveness, and we're going to talk about those things and actually get to the root of your problems and your witchcraft that you're practicing in your room.
Speaker 1:I feel the next episode coming up, Dem Next episode coming up demons in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that'll get some demons talking through the comments, but we love you though, anyways. But yeah, the Lord prepared us for it. But I was not prepared, like he tried to prepare me, but in my pride at the time and I thought I kind of knew it all, I was kind of like a 18 year old in the faith. I would say I was a little bit like zealous still and I just didn't have maturity. And when the persecution came, I mean, ask Justin, like it crippled me for a while, you know, and I had to get a backbone and I had to really settle my identity and learn how to forgive quickly and not allow offenses to harm me and to come against me and really just know like I'm here to please Christ and Christ alone. And my reputation, our reputation, was destroyed through the process and so.
Speaker 2:But now, like I take such delight in knowing that, like I have walked through that with Christ right by my side, cause, throughout the whole thing, like when I was wrong, I was wrong, I would have to repent, because there was times I wanted to defend, or I did defend, when I needed to stay silent and be like that's not true.
Speaker 2:But I learned a lot.
Speaker 2:I had to repent a lot and at the same time, I now would love to shake the hands of every persecutor and be like thank you so much with the most genuine heart, because I have such a deep love for them, because I would not be where I'm at today if it wasn't for what I've gone through and what I had went through, and be like, wow, I appreciate you because God used you in a mighty way in my life, whether you realize it or not, and the enemy tried to destroy me through it, but God, he is so faithful to complete what he has started. So that is very real. And again, like Justin said, I would much rather you throw a rock at my face than talk about me behind my back or falsely accuse me those kinds of things. So it's hard and it's real. I'm not going to downplay it and that's our type of persecution in the Western world. But if you're not being persecuted, I'm curious what are you actually doing for Christ? Because if you actually follow Jesus, it persecution is promised to you.
Speaker 2:That's right, so check.
Speaker 1:If everybody loves you and speaks well of you, if everybody loves you.
Speaker 2:Quote that that's so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he says. I believe Jesus says that uh, so did they. You know your forefather, your forefathers, like the Pharisees that came before you, like he basically says that's, that's the false apostles, the false prophets.
Speaker 2:That everybody loved and applauded, but they never really sacrificed anything. Well, I know we're winding down, but I got one more because I think it's a really important one yeah.
Speaker 1:So we'll just speak briefly on that. So last verse Matthew 10, 37 through 39. This is a hard one. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me or worthy to be my disciple.
Speaker 2:Wow, I feel like that speaks for itself, like you've got to be willing to follow Jesus to the ends of the earth.
Speaker 1:Right. Why do you think prioritizing our relationship with Christ over our family like? How could he say something like that? You think prioritizing our relationship?
Speaker 2:with Christ over our family. Like how could he say something like that? Well, I think because he first of all like, I think of just a relationship, of a marriage, like in a marriage it says leave and cleave, and like if you become the bride of Christ, you have to leave and cleave and Jesus has to be your everything. Like above Justin. Jesus is my everything. Um, I love Justin, I want the best for Justin. I would never want anything to happen to you or anything like that, but Christ is above and foremost, my main priority, and then I can have a healthy relationship with you. And the same with parents I cannot.
Speaker 2:Or children it even talks about children in that scripture. I think, if you go a little bit farther, mother, father and children and land whoever leaves those things behind. And it's like I have to tell my children too, like I love y'all with my whole heart and I would die for you, just like Christ died for me, but I will obey him, no matter if it offends you or not. You know, like, no matter if it makes me have to lose a relationship with you or not, like Christ is above, else, every single thing. Um, and it's so hard and people talk a big talk, but then when they're actually asked to like, follow him and maybe leave those things behind, it's hard, it's hard to watch, but, um, the ones that actually do it, no matter if it's hard, the reward is so much greater.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you realize, he knows, he knows he knows it's not like you know.
Speaker 1:It's like he's like yeah, you must love me more than you love them. But we also have to realize he loves them, yes, and so whatever he's calling us to obey or calling us to do is going to be the best scenario for that person. Even if there's distance or whatever it looks like in our logic and our understanding, it's like he's got them in mind. That's right, and so we just have to realize the most fruitful place to be is in his will and obeying him and he's going to cause those situations to work out.
Speaker 1:A lot of times we think like I, you know we don't say it, but I can do it better if I would just do it this way and we just submit.
Speaker 2:I know, for us like just to end on this is you know, when we went overseas like it felt like the worst time possible for our family dynamic.
Speaker 2:My mom had just gotten like filled with the Holy Spirit for the first time and like didn't know really how to walk with the Lord. Your family wasn't born again. You had a sister and a brother that were wayward, and a mother who was wayward and a grandmother that was wayward and all those things, and we kind of had to actually put some boundaries up and be like, hey, we really love you, but like we can't be in the toxicity and we actually have to go save ones that are actually hungry because we've tried to share and you've rejected me. So we're actually going to dust our feet, like the Bible says, and we're going to go to the harvest, where the harvest is desperate, and we moved to another country, begin to preach the gospel.
Speaker 2:Then God said come back. And after we came back, like all of them are born again. Now it actually worked. We gave them to God, we left, we let God work on them and then, when the time was right, they were in our homes repenting, giving their lives to Jesus. They all got baptized, two in our bathtub Well, yeah, two in our bathtub and one at your grandma's bathtub and one in her hot tub, you know, and one in her other hot tub.
Speaker 2:So, like you know. The next thing, you know, you're baptizing these people that you actually really had to hand over to to their sin for a minute, but they did come back and repent eventually. So it's just, the Bible works if you obey it. Oh yeah, that's the bottom line.
Speaker 1:It does, and that's the. That's the. That's all we wanted to get down to is like what does scripture? Say let's forget about all these, these traditions and these things that we built up, kind of tear down those false beliefs and the deception and banging our heads against the same wall because things aren't working, trying to make a broken system work and be like well, what did Jesus do? Let's not try to improve too much on his methods.
Speaker 2:Well, he just said go make disciples and I will build my church.
Speaker 1:We do it backwards.
Speaker 2:We build the church and not make disciples.
Speaker 1:Don't just teach them. Teach them to. And we wonder why the church is so funky and so yeah, so this has been an awesome time. It was a great conversation. Hopefully this has been fruitful for you listening and that you have learned something really helpful and you can go apply it. Appreciate your time and we are so excited I got some ideas for the next episodes.
Speaker 2:So fun. I'm excited too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks.