reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
How To Break FREE From Consumer Christianity | #reChurch Ep. 03
Is the modern church really following Christ's teachings, or are we catering to a consumer-driven culture?
In this episode, we question the megachurch model, its focus on entertainment, and whether it's staying true to scripture. We’ll talk about why it’s so important for churches to reassess their traditions and get back to the heart of the Gospel.
We also dive into the parable of the seed in Mark 4, exploring how true discipleship goes beyond surface-level commitments—it requires daily surrender, like a marriage built on trust and love. Using real-life examples from Luke 9, we’ll unpack the shortcomings of consumer-driven Christianity and the radical call to follow Jesus above all else.
Lastly, we’ll shift focus to the importance of multi-generational impact and spiritual reproduction over just growing numbers. Reflecting on John 15 and 1 Corinthians 2, we highlight the value of simplicity in discipleship and how it can lead to lasting, exponential growth that glorifies God. Tune in as we peel back the layers of religious tradition and uncover the true mission of the church.
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But I love how it says pick up your cross daily. I think a lot of people think that following Jesus is just a one-time repentance moment or a one-time situation, and then you're good to go forever. That's deception.
Speaker 2:He's waiting for the church to wake up and say I'm done with building my own kingdom and trying to invite you into my little project. Did Jesus build something and then say, god, would you come help me with this? Or did he say I only do what I see my father do? That's right, yeah, it just hit me when you were saying that I was picturing like this anemic malnutrition, jesus that we present and it hit me, that's the reason why we have to supplement.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Let's say there's a pastor listening right now. That's like oh crap, I'm a consumer church and I want to do something different. Like what would they do? Welcome to the ReChurch podcast. If you're tired of business as usual Christianity and ready to live more like Jesus, you have found yourself in the right place. I'm your host, Justin Knoop. I'm here again with my lovely wife, Brooke.
Speaker 1:Knoop, hello, hello, hello.
Speaker 2:Doing all right today, Brooke.
Speaker 1:I am. We started homeschool today.
Speaker 2:Awesome. So that? How's that going?
Speaker 1:It was really good. It's our 12th year. Yeah, wow 12 years of homeschooling. We've obviously moved to Texas. We've mentioned that a couple of times. They have a lot better laws for homeschooling so it's a little bit more relaxed, not as much pressure, so that has been really nice. But I'm also homeschooling our five-year-old, which throws things a little bit different, but it was really good. So I'm thankful for that. But my brain is still thinking about the gold rush in Alaska right now.
Speaker 2:All the interesting stuff you get to learn it at homeschooling. I get it Well. We had a really interesting conversation last week on our second episode. This is now our third episode of the Reacher's podcast, so it's going really well.
Speaker 1:but I'm realizing quickly, like we've got a lot to talk about, a lot to cover and sometimes it's just, it's tough to cover everything in one episode.
Speaker 2:Um, tell me a little bit about what we, what we discussed last week.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I think last week we were talking about like consumerism of the church and like I love the way you said it like business as usual. You know, the church never pauses to think about like why maybe isn't it working? So instead they just add more programs, more things and keep going with business as usual instead of rethinking things. So we discussed that about consumerism and the reason why we're seeing the production of consumerism Christianity growing is because the church is attracting consumers and not disciples, not truly laid-down lovers who are taught deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow Jesus. So instead the church I're, we're the church, I think the mega church model, or even churches in general they don't realize what they're doing by putting in arcades and having these massive conferences that cost thousands of dollars, with all the lights, cameras and actions and, you know, having the best lighting and all the things and the most eloquent speakers.
Speaker 1:I don't think they intentionally are meaning to produce consumers, but they are because they're attracting people that just want to be like, just to consume. You know the cool thing. So I think that's why we're producing that and so we discussed that last week just the producing of consumer Christianity and not really seeing the fruit of the New Testament church in our churches these days.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think now we need to have a solution. What do we do?
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. We don't want to seem like we're just constantly deconstructing or being critical, even though it's needed to like yeah.
Speaker 1:We need to challenge it.
Speaker 2:It is For sure we need to make people think.
Speaker 1:That's why the word re-church like re-think church, you know, is the whole point of this. Because I think we realized as a couple and with our travels and experience that like church in the megachurch setting is not technically what Christ has called us to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the big thing. Again. We mentioned this over and over. Traditions are not bad in and of themselves.
Speaker 2:Structures are not bad in and of themselves Like we use them all the time their structure within the family, within our home, with when we eat dinner, like how we function as a family. It's not all bad, but we do have to stop every now and then to pause to rethink everything that we're implementing in our lives and whether or not it is producing the fruit of the goal that we want or it's not. And when it comes to the way that we function in the church, really looking back biblically and saying you know, is this what scripture teaches us to do? Is this what Jesus set an example for?
Speaker 1:us to do.
Speaker 2:And I know we're diving head, you know, straight in. But this, you know, one thing came to my mind when we were talking, because the main thing I want to talk, I want to talk about today, is what you just said earlier. You're talking about an attractional model of church. So we want to talk about the difference between attractional and incarnational church.
Speaker 1:Well, explain, what does that mean? Incarnational church?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll start with attractional. It's kind of obvious, but not so. Basically, I think it starts with a question that we ask, so a question that the church at large is asking itself when we think about how are we going to reach culture, how are we going to reach this generation?
Speaker 2:And it starts off with us believing that the answer is drawing them in out of the world attracting them into the church, and when I use that word, I use that term loosely, because usually it means attracting them to the building right To the Sunday meeting. Okay, so we're asking the question, and Neil Cole puts this best in his book Church 3.0, which is an amazing book. He says we're asking the question how do we better attract the culture to us? Right, and that's when we start to implement these things in our meetings and our gatherings that invite people into this consumerism. So we're thinking what attracts the culture? Let's put that in our church gatherings and hopefully the lost people will wander in. That's right, because if you think about it, it's pretty obvious that most of the world is not. They're not just going to walk by a church building on a Sunday and be like you know what? I think I'll stop in and see what's going on, right, completely outside, you know. And so the really there's. There's attractional, there's a definition of the attractional where we're figuring out ways that we can attract people into our church meetings. Again, nothing wrong with that in general. Is it the best way? We'll talk about that in a second.
Speaker 2:Number two versus incarnational. What do I mean by incarnation? What did Jesus do as the incarnate God into the world? Right? That's a good question. He had a message to bring to us, and what did he do? He became a human being and he met us in our culture, in our context, and he brought that good news into our situation. Why? Because I think that's the best way to reach people is to go into their world and bring that message into their world and meet them where they're at.
Speaker 2:That's what Jesus set to us as an example. So that's where it's like. Okay, within discipleship, within the movement of Christianity. Might that be a better model, you know, for us to use? And I think very much so. That's right. One scripture that I want to bring up that we can discuss further as well, as in Luke, and it directly confronts this idea of this consumer-style Christianity where we're going in trying to fit everything around our needs right In Luke, chapter 9, this is right before the transfiguration. I believe this is in Luke. This is where Jesus feeds the 5,000. So he is meeting the crowds right In the context.
Speaker 1:He's meeting the crowds, he's meeting needs.
Speaker 2:He was in their midst and his disciples are asking him or actually they're meeting with him after that and he asked them a question.
Speaker 2:He says you know who do people say that I am? And they start giving him you know, elijah, all these different things. And then that's where Peter says you know you are the Christ. Right, peter says you know you are the Christ and he mentions that right after that. He mentions this just giving you the context for that scripture. He says in Luke 9, 23,. And he said to all if anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.
Speaker 1:And I love what it says If anyone come after me, you have to seek him. He's already revealed himself to the world. He's already died for the sins of the world. He's done his part. The ball's now in our court and we have to respond to the message that he gave us 2,000 years ago when he died for us, and respond to him and come to him. It's our turn to respond to Jesus's message. He's done. He's done his part, so now we respond to him and then sanct Him. It's our turn to respond to Jesus's message. He's done. He's done His part, so now we respond to Him and then sanctification takes place in our life.
Speaker 1:But I love how it says pick up your cross daily and follow Him. I think a lot of people think that following Jesus is just a one-time repentance moment or a one-time situation and then you're good to go forever. But that's deception. I think it's actually a lifestyle of repentance and constantly denial of self. And I am more eager to deny myself now in my relationship with the Lord, 13 years in, than I was in the very beginning, because I just know Him more and my love for Him has grown, just like our relationship, like any marriage you have love and you have some infatuation, some attraction in the beginning. But, like, I love you more now than I did when I first met you, that's how marriage should be right. That's how our relationship with Jesus is too. So I trust you more now. I followed you to Texas and around the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I followed Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and you're following Jesus. So we're following Jesus together and so I trust your wisdom and discernment. Because I've watched how you live the same with being in relationship with Christ, because I've been in relationship with her so long, I'm more quickly to want to deny myself of things because I know His ways are better. But most people never get to that point because they're never actually taught to deny themselves point, because they're never actually taught to deny themselves, so they never really get into right relationship with him where they're actually pursuing him just for him and not what they can gain. So that makes a big difference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, and I think it goes back to what we're showing people from the beginning. I think that's why it's so important that first introduction when sharing the gospel when inviting people to a situation, meeting them where they're at, no matter what comes out of our mouth. They're people to a situation meeting them there where they're at, no matter what comes out of our mouth. They're going to be looking at our actions.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And so if we're saying, hey, this is the gospel, but the way that we share the gospel, the context that we share the gospel typically sounds like this hey, you know Jesus loves you. You know you're amazing. You know Jesus loves you. Um, you know you're amazing. Like, come to my, my church service, and you get there and we just like, lavish you and, and we're hitting all five senses and all of this thing. And then there's an invitation to give your life to Christ. What is that person? You know, put yourself in their shoes. What are they thinking they're getting themselves into?
Speaker 1:oh, they think they're getting into a really cool frat house. I don't know, that's the first analogy that hit my mind, but that's real Like an actual frat house is kind of what's honestly to challenge you a little bit. I would think frat houses are more difficult you know, to get into right, they've got, they've got actually challenges to enter in.
Speaker 2:but what we're doing is is creating this environment where we're sugarcoating to where it's actually a very, very hard letdown for a lot of people when they realize that this whole thing is about full surrender. And so it's not that we're trying to make it harder for people to follow Jesus, but, again, we're following Jesus's example.
Speaker 1:Method, his model and his model. Well, you know, when people said, hey, I want to follow you, he looked at them. And because to follow you he looked at him? And because he was Jesus, he knew their heart's intent and motive. So he would go straight to the heart. Okay, you want to follow me? You're a rich man? Sell all your possessions and give it to the poor. Yeah, oh, my goodness.
Speaker 1:It said the man was unable to commit to that commitment and he walked away. And it says Jesus was heartbroken and he walked away. And it says Jesus was heartbroken. But Jesus didn't say wait, wait, wait, wait. Just, let's just start with a third. We'll just start there, We'll just start with a third. No, he stuck with what he said, because he wants true followers of Christ, not people who are just in it for what they can gain. And so, and then the next person he uses an illustration in the scriptures is a man, walks up to him and was like hey, you got to leave your family. And the guy was like I can't leave my family, Like I love my family, Can I just wait till they die first? And he said no, let the dead bury the dead. Like let those who are lost, not in Christ Jesus. Go along their way, and when they die, they'll bury. Let them bury themselves, you know, let the other family bury themselves.
Speaker 1:But if you want to also have, you know, peter and James and John, they come to Jesus and they're like Jesus, lord, you know, I want to follow you. And he says are you going to drink my blood and eat my flesh? They're like really hard teaching, kind of weird. 70 walked away but the 12 stayed because they said what do I have to go back to? Because they truly had denied everything. They had nothing to go back to.
Speaker 1:So I'm telling y'all that when you receive Jesus and you want to come to Christ, if you go ahead and just lay everything on there, I remember when I first gave my life to the Lord, this is what I did and it was powerful and I kept this for many years for a reminder. When I gave my life to Jesus, I felt like the Holy Spirit told me to write out a check to Jesus and just I got an. We used to use checks. We don't use checks anymore. I don't think I've written a check in actually like five or six years or longer, but 13 years ago we had a checkbook and so I pulled out a check and I wrote in there to Jesus from you know, brooke, and I put in an amount, just whatever amount he wanted. I left the amount blank open.
Speaker 1:Yes and I signed it and I put it on my wall in my closet to remind me. The day I said yes to Jesus, I signed everything over. So whatever he asked for, I'm going to do it because I understood when I met him I was dying to myself. Not because a pastor actually told me that, because Jesus himself told me that when I met him I was dying to myself, Not because a pastor actually told me that, because Jesus himself told me that when I encountered him, he said Brooke, you've got to give it all to me now. If you don't give it all to me now, I'm turning you over to a debased place, and that I wasn't going to go there. I was going to surrender it all.
Speaker 1:So that is what it means and I kept that check for many, many years to just as a reminder don't go back, Brooke, there's nothing to go back to. You know, just like the disciples said, so literally, Peter and them are asking them what do we go back to? And Jesus is like you can go and he's like we have nothing. We've burned it all. We burned the plows, we burned all the relationships. Like we're in, like we have nothing to go back.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's why the command is come and die.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, no.
Speaker 2:I agree, but I think you can't going along with that. You can't really taste that transformation and that full experience until you first lay everything down, lay it all down Like it's that blank check mentality. So I think that's why it's so important to show that to people first, and that doesn't mean you know what you're going to have to lay down Like when.
Speaker 1:I signed that check, I didn't realize it was going to cost me everything I did. But I didn't. But because I made the choice to say yes, it made it so much easier when he actually asked these things of me to be like. I've already made the choice, the decision's been made, I can't go back now. And that's why it was easy for the disciples the decision had already been made, so there was no going back now.
Speaker 2:There should be like a scripture somewhere that says you know, before saying yes to Jesus you should count the cost 100%, 100% there is. There is a verse. No, that's amazing, but I think it just sets people up for success. I've known too many people, including myself, that just didn't understand really fully what I was getting into, so it took a while for full surrender to take place. That's right.
Speaker 1:Or some people didn't stick it out because it was too much, the surrender was too great, and they go back to their comfortable lives. But they still think they're Christians. That's the sad part. But they actually went back to their comfortable lives and they don't even realize they forfeited their salvation and their comfortability.
Speaker 2:Sure Cause we're we're trusting what other people are saying Instead of looking at scriptures and seeing what are the marks of a true disciple. You know what does Jesus actually say. I was just reading this last night. There are multiple scriptures, most of them in John, so you might be familiar with them 15, John eight that talk about this makes you a disciple. You know.
Speaker 1:One of those is the way, the way that the people will know you're my disciple, because you love like Christ.
Speaker 2:You know, people will know you're my disciple because you actually obey right. You obey the scriptures, you obey the word. We're not taught that. Um again, a lot of people say things with their mouth. They, we, we preach a certain message, but then we show people something else. Our example is different. We're telling people no.
Speaker 2:To follow Jesus, to be a true disciple, means that you've surrendered everything and you actually obey what he says his word, but then what we're showing them by what we put our emphasis on is no, what makes you a Christian is that you raise your hand, you pray the prayer, but then you also come to a gathering on Sundays or whatever. Your association with the church as an organization, Community is absolutely important in your walk, but there's a, there's a. There's a tends to be a huge gap in the people's lives that enter in not knowing what they're getting into and when they actually start reaping the the the true fruit in their lives and that usually is the moment of like.
Speaker 2:You'll hear a lot of people's testimony where they're like you know, I believed in Jesus when I was six and then, um, you know, when I was 10, I had this other thing that happened, and then I walked away from Jesus for a little while and then, at 24, that's when I had this transformative encounter and I'm like, honestly, you didn't even get born again until you were there. It's weird that we're trying to say like, oh, I've been a believer, like I've been a Christian since I was six.
Speaker 1:No, you believed in God since you were six, but you didn't become a true follower of Christ until you were 24. And you laid down all your sin and you died and you actually started picking up a cross and following Jesus Like you just had encounters but obviously your spirit wasn't ready to surrender yet. But because God loves all men, it said all men, he says he's drawing all men to himself. So you'll have these encounters with God throughout your young adult life, childhood, whatever. But there has to be a moment of oh, I have to fully surrender my life. But until he is Lord and you fully surrendered, you are not following, you are not sealed, you are not born again, you are not walking out the wall. That's why salvation is a journey which is a whole, nother topic we'll talk about eventually.
Speaker 1:It's not an instant in time. You can't say, oh, I got saved at 12. How can you say that? Because you haven't even been saved yet. I mean from earth. You know you still are walking out your salvation. So, anyways, that's another topic. But I think if we teach like you truly have to come to Jesus and die, these kids that get born again at 12, they might actually walk out a holy life until they're 24. You know what I'm saying. Or if they give their lives to Jesus at 16, they might actually walk it out. Or maybe they won't come and have these false conversions and then get all mixed up and confused and then have a real radical encounter with Jesus at 23 and have to relearn everything. They'll just keep going along their merry way and then hopefully surrender at some point in their life, instead of feeling like they're convinced at 16 they're saved because they never died.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just this false idea, this false expectation. But also it's it's funny how, over time, we seem to change the standard based on our experience, right, and so now, all of a sudden, it's like what's expected.
Speaker 2:It's expected that even kids that grow up, quote unquote, in the church or in a Christian family are going to have this time where they rebel and then they come back and all of this stuff where they don't, and so that's what we expect and so we're not thrown off by that, we just think that's what's supposed to happen. I remember you having a conversation with a mom years ago that was talking about like teenagers and teenagers are going, they're going to experiment and they're going to go through these years, and what was your response to that?
Speaker 1:I don't agree with you. Yeah, I don't think that that has to be what our kids experience. But I think our kids experience that because they're seeing a lukewarm, watered down gospel that has zero power. So why would they stay when they get into their 20s when the world's offering them something that's just as real as Jesus Witchcraft, new age, you name it Tarot cards, you know. Parties, drugs, alcohol are just as real as Jesus is real. They give you euphorias and experiences that feel great in the moment and pacify in the moment.
Speaker 1:But we're over here talking about this goofy, lovey-dovey Jesus that can't save you and break bondage off of you and can't defeat a demon and can't do all these things and heal the sick and all this stuff. The reason why he walked in power was to demonstrate his power over darkness. If you're over here giving people a cakewalk Jesus, they're like well, why am I going to do that when the power over darkness? If you're over here giving people a cakewalk Jesus, they're like well, why am I going to do that when the power over here is way more real? You know what I'm saying. So I think if you show kids the true Jesus that walked on water, that raised the dead, that multiplied bread, healed the sick, cast out demons. They're a lot less likely to walk away because that Jesus and they encounter that and watch that and see those miracles, what they got to go to. That makes the devil look this big.
Speaker 1:But all of us out here are like oh well, miracles cease. Where in the Bible does it say that? Tell me, show me a verse. And I can't show you a verse that says they didn't cease. But why are we going to write something in the text that's not there? But he did say to all disciples you will go, do greater things than I did. It's not just talking to the 12., it's talking to us all, disciples, you know. So give them the real gospel. Give kids the real Jesus. Don't turn it into a fluffy story and a fluffy soft Jesus, and maybe they'll stick around a little longer and not give up so quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just hit me when you were saying that I was picturing like this anemic malnutrition, jesus that we present and it hit me, that's the reason why we have to supplement.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:It literally as you're talking. I was picturing. If you preach anemic Jesus, you have to supplement iron, and so what we're doing is we're creating environments that supplement.
Speaker 2:We've got coffee shops, arcades yeah coffee shop Jesus, so we're supplementing him. Again, nothing wrong with coffee I drink coffee. There's nothing wrong with supplements, right. But what we're doing is we're presenting the wrong Jesus. And so, to make up for it, we're doing all of these other things to attract people in, but they're attracted into the supplements. That all of these other things to attract people in, but they're attracted into the supplements, because we're preaching the wrong Jesus. We're giving them the wrong message. Really, we're preaching an anemic gospel because it doesn't change and it doesn't transform.
Speaker 1:And people are deficient.
Speaker 2:Right, We've stripped it. It's what is said in the book of Timothy right there's a form of godliness that actually lacks power and transformation that's being preached lacks power and transformation that's being preached.
Speaker 2:And so we, instead of, instead of repenting and looking at the true gospel and then preaching that, regardless of people's response and regardless of what it looks like from the outside regardless is if, instead of a, instead of a thousand, coming in, we have 10 or five that are authentic. Uh, we keep just adding to adding programs, adding all of these things to make it seem better, adding all the sprinkles so that we can keep up with the show. That's right, but what we need to do is repent, preach the real gospel, watch people's lives actually get changed and transform. It's going to be less like worse. We're fighting against the fact that Jesus literally said only a fourth, 25% right In Mark, chapter four, make it the parable of the seed. Only four are actually going to receive it and then bear fruit. But how much fruit do they bear? 160, 30. Right, right, 360, 100 fold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 360, 100 fold fruit, and so we're just looking at it from a wrong framework. It's like no Jesus went after the ones that were authentic, the ones that were real, the ones that the spirit was drawing. That's another thing is, you know, if the if the the wrong question is how do we attract people into the church?
Speaker 1:That's the wrong question. What's the?
Speaker 2:right question. I think what the right question is is looking in our city, looking in our workplace, looking in our schools, looking all over the culture and saying where is God already at work? That's right, when is the Holy Spirit already at work, and how can I partner with what he's doing? So, instead of doing that, we're creating our own kingdoms and our own systems and inviting God to fill and bless those systems. And you know what Many times he does work in those systems because it's all he's getting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, that's all he's getting.
Speaker 2:But he's waiting for the church to wake up and say I'm done with building my own kingdom and trying to invite you into my little project. And I'm looking around. What did Jesus say? Did Jesus build something and then say, god, would you come help me with this? Or did he say I only do what I see my father doing, right? So Jesus was going about his father's business, and it wasn't that he was creating something to attract people. He was going about his father's business. He was preaching the true message. That was, miracles were breaking out. People were drawn to that. That's right. Think about this. So we're drawing people to the church service building, but what he was doing was actually drawing people to God.
Speaker 1:I still am stuck on what you said, like a deficient Jesus makes deficient disciples.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to supplement, so the church needs some blood work.
Speaker 1:The church needs a blood transfusion, a Holy Ghost blood transfusion. Yeah, that's crazy. So what do we do to fix this? Justin, like you kind of gave us a little bit what you were just saying just then, like going to where the people are doing the message of Jesus, um, but but let's say there's a pastor listening right now. That's like oh crap, I'm a consumer church and I want to do something different. Like what would they do?
Speaker 2:I would say it's a lot harder for someone in that position, than it is a brand new believer that doesn't have of these things and I think honestly that's what holds back a lot of pastors and leaders.
Speaker 1:The bigger following they have Not all, but most.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the bigger organization they have, the bigger paycheck they have.
Speaker 1:There's a lot to lose.
Speaker 2:So I would say first of all, you need to count the cost. That's right. You need to count the cost of what you're actually getting ready to say yes to and whether or not you're willing to lay everything down for Jesus. Most people think most pastors and leaders would think oh, it's laying down my old life and sin and all of those things Like yes, that is that.
Speaker 1:No, you need to lay down the fake kingdom you've built up and called it Jesus's kingdom. Like are you?
Speaker 2:truly willing to lay down your ministry? Yeah, that's right, because we watch a lot of people just grasp onto it. But what does Jesus say?
Speaker 1:Right? Well, I just think of the Titanic just popped in my head when you were talking. Like that captain was unwilling to let go of his boat so he died with the ship. Like traditionalism, institutionalism, y'all. If you don't see, it is dying. Like what is the statistic, justin he's my number guy of people leaving the church on a yearly basis Like they're not leaving their faith, but they're leaving the institution by the droves, by the millions, right Every year?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, it was. It was over a million in 2020 years ago. Yeah, yeah 2010.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's like we're sitting here looking at these numbers and, again, it's not that Christianity is dying. Now, if you look at the church, it might feel that way, like at the church building institution, it might be like, wow, christianity is slacking. But no, people are actually looking for something real and authentic that actually does cost them. People are okay if something costs them. Think about it Like if you buy a very expensive purse, you're going to take a lot better care of it than if you bought, like, a $12 bag on Amazon. So if you're giving them $12 gospel, they're going to treat it like a $12 gospel. But if you're treating it like a pearl that's worth everything in a field that you sell all your possessions to go harvest it out of the field, what are they going to do with that gospel? They're going to treat it like it costs them everything.
Speaker 1:So, I think first, like for pastors, they, just like you said, like, need to evaluate not just pastors, but all believers. Like, evaluate your life. Like is there something in your heart? We watched the Forge this weekend, so good, go watch it. Crowd about 55 times right.
Speaker 1:But the dude's in his room, he's reading his Bible and his discipler says, like you have to follow Jesus, you have to lay something down. And he gave an example of what that was. And so the kid goes into his room and he's sitting there and he's praying. He's like God, like what do I need to lay down? And he looks over at his videos games and he's like crap, no, jesus, not my video games. And then he's like I know, but it consumes my life, my time, my mind, my all my energy. So he literally trashed his video games and got him out of his life. What do you need to get out of your life Like, is it video games? Is it materialism? Is it comfortability? Is it family? Like, what is holding you back from truly? Is it money? What's holding you back from truly following Jesus? Get it out of your life, start there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I'm going to answer your question very simply.
Speaker 2:So, to the person, I'll start with the person who doesn't have all of that stuff you know, to give up, to the person just either entering into their walk with Christ, or to the person that doesn't have a ministry or whatever. They're just everyday disciples and stuff like that. Number one it starts with humbling yourself and recognizing you don't have it all right and being willing to look in the scriptures and see what was the? What was it? Where we need to start is what was the model that Jesus laid out?
Speaker 1:for us yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, not looking at the scriptures through the lens of our traditions and what was passed down to us. But what did Jesus actually do and what did he prioritize? That's right, and I think it starts there, because I can sit here and give you a list of what the best church model and structure looks like, which it's not about. It's not about creating a specific model that we can just reproduce, because then it'll turn into idolatry.
Speaker 1:It'll turn into the same system that we're trying to avoid.
Speaker 2:But when Jesus walked on the scene, what did he do with the current church model?
Speaker 1:if you will, the synagogue model.
Speaker 2:He literally walked in. It disrupted it and then he looked at the people that were idolizing it and said this won't stand Within this generation. It will all be rubble Be destroyed.
Speaker 1:That's right. Do you know what I'm saying? Not one left on another, and then he called himself the temple. Why?
Speaker 2:Because he wanted to mobilize the church. And what have we done? We have literally rebuilt the structures, the temple and the religious system that Jesus tore down. There was a reason he did that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think back on a revelation I had one time I was sitting and praying and the song this Little Light of Mine came into my mind and I'm like, am I singing this? I haven't sung this song since I was a little girl and I'm like this little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine. Don't hide it under a bushel. No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 2:Don't hide it under a bushel. No, I'm going to let it shine.
Speaker 1:And as I'm seeing this in my mind, I had this picture of the church building had become the basket and the lights were hidden inside this little building because we think this is what church is, but it's actually not what church is.
Speaker 1:That's right. We have to get outside of the building and actually go let our light shine to all the world, and so I think that's that's a huge part of it. Like, the church is where we come together to be equipped, to go out and do them to be equipped, equipped, equipped y'all homeschool mom. They're gonna be so smart anyway. They come to be equipped and then they end up going back out into the earth to literally rescue it for the kingdom of God. But that's not what we're producing. So I just had this picture when you were talking just a minute ago. When we have a baby, we get a newborn baby and they're completely and solely dependent on us for about 18 months, around 18 months. They're now walking well, they're eating solid foods, they're learning how to eat by themselves all these types of things and we know in this day and age, like a video game and a screen is not what you want to give your 18 month old right away. You actually want to give them things that build and develop their skills, like toys that actually help them have hand eye coordination. But what do we do as a church as soon as we get a newborn baby, we nurse them and then we give them lights, camera, flashy action and it's producing that. People that can't even have a quiet time because their mind is so overstimulated by consumerism and the lights, camera, action at church and the charismatic speaker that gives them a joke every like. You know a couple lines and so when they get into the word of God and getting into prayer, they don't even know how to pray and sit for 30 minutes to pray or even read their Bible for 30 minutes, because they need to be stimulated all the time. Like we wouldn't do it to our two-year-old, so why are we doing it to our spiritual children? You know, like overstimulating them. So I think, just simplifying it go back, just read. Go, you believers, if you live in America or in any form of the Western world, even third world countries, now a lot of people are learning how to read. You know, if you have a Bible and you can read it.
Speaker 1:Read what Jesus did in the book of Acts Did he ever build a building? Or even in the Gospels did he ever build a building? Did he ever say build a church? No, he said come, repent, follow me, die to self, pick up your cross and now, once you've died to yourself and you pick your cross up daily, now go make disciples. And then you look at the book of Acts and actually the church was dispersed. It never stayed in one building. There was no such thing as a megachurch it could have easily became that but because of persecution it was dispersed among the whole known world at the time and they went into the homes, they made disciples and the disciples stayed in Jerusalem for X amount of years, not even knowing that the church had actually been growing. And they go to actually leave because they hear that, oh, the things you taught while all these people were here they're actually doing in their towns now that they're not here anymore and they go to see and church has grown, but not because they're building buildings. It's because they actually had the seed of God in them to go out and make disciples and reproduce what they had received.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:We got to do that.
Speaker 2:It's not that the it's not that the first century church had it perfect. So it's not like we take everything that they do. No, you could see from, if you read from the beginning of Acts to the end, where things changed and people don't recognize that.
Speaker 2:It's like yes, there's principles that we can learn from them. The better thing to do is to read through it and look what they were still doing by the end of the book of Acts. Look how things were morphing and changing Like think about the beginning of Acts and how their Jewish culture and what they have understood their traditions, I should say caused them to do. It caused them to roll dice to pick a new apostle right.
Speaker 2:You don't see that continuing to happen. Right, they understood that there were different ways to go about stuff. And then you see later on where they're gathering together to make a decision to you know how they should respond to certain problems in the church, and they're coming together asking the Holy spirit, figuring out ways to do that. And so you see it kind of morph and change. But you know, a lot of times we don't, we don't look at that, we don't. We don't actually look at that. Look at their example and see what they did and ask ourselves why they did what they did. Right. And so I would say, step one, even before we got into we can lay in later episodes, get into specific details of the fruit of making these decisions and what it looks like, but honestly, number one is um is like renewing your mind in this area.
Speaker 2:Would you agree Like until we actually renew our mind in this area and get into the word of God and see? See it firsthand for ourselves by taking off those religious lenses we can't actually start to implement stuff.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Because guess what we'll do. Well, it, like a magnet, will go right. It doesn't matter if you got rid of your building to say you're a pastor, you get rid of your building, you get rid of all this stuff and you're like you know what? I'm moving everything to a house. Guess what you're going to do without renewing your mind.
Speaker 1:You're going to start preaching in your home right, you're going to line up your chairs.
Speaker 2:All of a sudden you're right back to what you know, what's comfortable.
Speaker 1:You have to. I'm even learning that now, like with being a homeschool mom, like I've maybe overcomplicated it in the years and the Lord's teaching me like simplify, kind of unschool your kids. That doesn't mean I don't do anything with my children. I still put a lot of effort into stimulation of their minds and helping them to learn on their own. My goal now as a mom is not to spoon feed them information so they can pass a test. My goal is to teach them to be hungry, how to learn and teach themselves so that when they get out in the world and they're not under mommy and daddy's roof, they know how to figure something out on their own and not listen to people's opinions, you know, and they actually can have thoughts for themselves.
Speaker 1:And so it's the same for us, like we have to un-re-church ourselves un-church ourselves, so that we can actually re-church, you know, and like, actually do church the way it was, because if you don't renew your mind in this area, you'll just go back to what is familiar, and we do that with everything like dieting. I don't know how to lose weight. All I know is I need to starve myself. I starve myself and I gain it all back in 30 plus pounds, and so I just do this yo-yo effect, because that's all I know.
Speaker 1:You know it's the same about dieting on anything you believe. If you don't change your thought process in your mind and your belief system around money, health, whatever, you go back to what's comfortable and you end up broke or whatever the case may be. So you have to fully renew your mind. And fully renewing your mind doesn't mean you read something over and over again. Fully renewing your mind means you read it and you get the knowledge in your mind. Then you start to change the way you think about it. You meditate on it, then you start to change the way you talk and then the actions will follow to the mind and the talk of what you're, you're understanding, and once the actions have changed completely, you know your mind is now renewed. Yep, so it starts with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah and no. That's a great example because you can. It's like a little literally a parallel effect of how we can look at the uh, how school began, the intentions of school when it began and where it's come to after it's been institutionalized, westernized. The government is taking control of it, but we don't realize. There's a lot of people that are looking at the school systems and they can recognize that that's right. They're calling it out.
Speaker 2:It's not working, but they're not recognizing the same things happening with the church. Right, it's becoming institutionalized and we're doing all of those things, thinking that we're creating a better system, and there's no room for the spirit.
Speaker 1:It can't be spirit led because it's a system.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just like we eventually.
Speaker 1:Systems run without people.
Speaker 2:Think about that, just as the school system eventually leads the direction it does and then kicks God out of it.
Speaker 1:I think the church is on the exact trajectory.
Speaker 2:And the scary part is is because it's the church quote unquote a lot of people are not even recognizing it's happening. That's right, okay. Book of Revelation when Jesus is standing at the door knocking, he's not knocking on the heart of an unbeliever.
Speaker 1:He's knocking on the doors to the church saying let me in, Let me in.
Speaker 2:So by our actions and our slow drift, eventually we are taking over and building so many systems and structures and programs that we no longer need the Holy Spirit. And when the Holy Spirit is not welcomed, when he's not invited, when he's not needed by our words or our actions, he steps away.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:What is Jesus's warning to the church that won't do what he's commanding them to do in the book of Revelation.
Speaker 1:Well, he left the temple. I mean, he left the temple.
Speaker 2:Well, that? And he says I will come to you. Yes, Right, talk about the return of Jesus, I will come to you and I will remove your lampstand Cool. Think about that. Here's the scary part If you get to the place where you are are running church, you are gathering as the church without the Holy Spirit. You won't even recognize when he's left. That's right, Because you kicked him out years ago.
Speaker 1:That's right. And, pastors, you cannot sit there and look. All my numbers are growing and the money is up and we're doing great with our tithe. As your standard of testing the fruit of it, you actually have to look at what am I reproducing in people, and are the people I'm discipling making disciples?
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:You cannot look at the finances and how big your congregation has grown. Anyone can draw a crowd. I can draw a crowd if I wanted to. I got a spunky personality, you know. So I could draw a crowd. But if I'm not giving them the real Jesus, they're just going to always come back to me and sit down with me to hear what I have to say, because I'm spunky, charismatic and funny. But and funny but. Am I actually giving them something that they can take outside of our relationship and give to someone else that leads them to Jesus and not to me?
Speaker 2:or to a building. Yeah, that's so good. And let's wind down with this thought because I want to leave people with something to think about. So we've said a lot. We've talked about attractional church or extractional church versus incarnational right. We're discipling people, we're bringing them in, but they're not losing their connection with the world. They're not in the world right, they're not acting like the world Right, but the connection relationally is still there so that they can influence the world right. That's right we want to send them back out as missionaries into their culture, into their city.
Speaker 2:We don't want to put them in the Christian bubble, right. So we talked about that. You know, recognizing some of these things. It starts with humility, repentance, recognizing I've got it wrong and just simply asking the question Lord, where did I miss it? What is church? Beginning to read the scriptures with new lens? New lenses, that's where it starts.
Speaker 2:And this is the thought that I want to leave people with. You know, when we look at success as a family, you realize this. When you start to get a little bit of age and maturity on you, your kids are starting to get older and for a long time in your twenties, maybe even your thirties, you're thinking about how you can become successful, even if it's for providing for your family, Right. But there comes this time where you switch over to this generational mindset of now Wow, I see that time is it's not running out, but it's like you know you're getting there, You're halfway through, Right, and you're like what do I want? What is the impact I want to leave? What do I want to, how do I want the generation behind me to to have been impacted by me?
Speaker 2:And so I think those are the types of questions we need to start asking, uh, when we're looking at how to, how to gather as the church and the effect that we need to start asking, when we're looking at how to gather as the church and the effect that we want to have on the people that we're discipling. Because if we're only and I think mainly we are, but if we're only thinking one generation, then we're doing good, right, we're for our own success, the success of our organization. But guess what's happening? 99% of the people that are in the congregations. They're not able to reproduce. They're not equipped to reproduce. They're 20, 30, 40 years into the church and they don't know how to reproduce.
Speaker 2:They still have to bring they still have to bring people to mom and dad in order for them to to. It's not even multiplication, it's just addition at that point, Okay, so we're very short-sighted in the way that we're thinking. So I think, if we just think about that, if I could leave you with anything, think about what not would what would make the most successful thing right now, right here and now, but what is going to leave multi-generational impact? How can we not only multiply? And when you think about multiplication, it's about equipping your disciples or the people you're discipling your children and, like a real scenario, father and mother, you're thinking about how you can equip them to begin to reproduce.
Speaker 2:Because when you're, when you're going to be long gone by the time that your family generational line you know in in like physically your family generational line has, uh, a thousand people in it right, the new family you know, or?
Speaker 2:whatever, and it's like we got a bunch of boys so it'll happen, right, why don't we think about that? Like the church, like with the church? Yeah, because ultimately, what's going to happen is it's going to look like we've achieved less because we've poured deeply into fewer amount of people, but a hundred years from now, you could have impacted an entire continent. Yeah, that's what we have to think about. What is going to give me exponential growth? That's so good, because, not because I want exponential growth or I want a big name for myself, but because it pleases the Lord, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:I'm so over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go ahead, john 15 talks about what he's called you to do, and that is to bear much fruit, and fruit that remains.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Yeah, I'm over trying to like have a bunch of numbers because I'm learning more and more as I mature in the Lord that if the world can count and measure my success, god's not looking at those numbers. He's looking at the numbers nobody sees the lives that have been changed that nobody knows about. You know, so look for that kind of fruit in your life.
Speaker 2:That's right, and if you bear more of that fruit than the fruit that people can actually see it's, it's probably actually going to have much more of a deep effect impact and it's going to point people to Christ more right Then that superficial fruit that just brings a lot of people looking to you. I wish we had more time to talk, but you know, uh, we, I think we brought up this scripture first, first Corinthians. Chapter two, where the Corinthian church was, was dealing with the idolatry of man of people.
Speaker 2:I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Jesus, you know. And there was all this division and Paul said the reason it was is because they were carnal and people were following after the fancy ministries and the fancy words of people. And that's why he said when I came to you, I just brought Christ and him crucified. Like, even though I've got more to say right now, I'm not going to say it right now because I want you fully dependent on him before I give you further wisdom. That's so good. Yeah, that's why we try to just keep it simple.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say it right now because I want you fully dependent on him before I give you further wisdom. So good, yeah, that's why we try to just keep it simple and then, when you can grasp that, that, that simple foundational life of a disciple, Then we'll talk about the secrets God's revealed.
Speaker 1:Then you can move on to those things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so good, awesome so good. But yeah, I've had a lot of fun talking about this. I think I have a feeling there'll be a connection in episode four where we'll continue. I've already got some things on my mind of what I would love some discussion on discipleship.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What discipleship looks like? Yeah, maybe some. Just to give you a preview of next episode, maybe. What does it look like to not be self-seeking but to deny yourself? I agree we can get into some of those conversations. So thank you guys for joining us today. It's been a pleasure and we'll see you in the next episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, have a good day, guys.