reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
Exposing The Truth About Consumer Christianity | #reChurch Ep. 02
"Whatever you draw people in WITH is what you draw them TO,"
Is your church more about drawing crowds than growing genuine faith? In this episode, we dive into the idea of "consumer Christianity" and how it’s shaping modern churches, how flashy, consumer-driven methods can actually distort the true gospel.
We’ll also talk about Paul’s simple approach from 1 Corinthians, and why relying on charismatic pastors or overcomplicated teachings can leave people spiritually dependent, instead of pushing them toward a deeper relationship with Jesus. Plus, we'll touch on the parable of the soils, discussing why real discipleship is about authentic relationships and long-term growth, not quick fixes or traditions that weigh people down. Let’s reThink what church should be and rediscover a more authentic, life-changing faith.
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Because when we go overseas like we could preach to 50, sometimes 100 people or more, I can't tell you that 10 of those that raise their hands are actually born again until two to five years from now when I actually see fruit in their life and honestly, I really can't tell you till we all get to heaven and God says you're faithful, come on in you know People may say, wow, you sound really critical on the church and I'm like no, we love the church, we love the church, we love the body of Christ.
Speaker 2:That's why we've given our life to serve the body of Christ. So, just like Jesus in the book of Revelation when he sees something that is hindering the bride, you see, almost like a righteous frustration because those things are coming against the maturity of the bride.
Speaker 1:Well, who did he come frustrated at? It wasn't the sinners. No it was the religious people, it was the traditions, the system. 80% of the church would not even know what the Great Commission was, or if they knew the actual quote of it. They've never done it. Ask fellow believers around you how to share the gospel. They don't know how to.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the ReChurch podcast. If you are tired of business as usual Christianity and want to live more like Jesus, you have found yourself in the right spot. I'm your host, Justin Knoop, and I'm here again with my lovely wife, Brooke.
Speaker 1:Lovely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Lovely beautiful, magnificent. Okay, I'm racking up points.
Speaker 1:I'm like what's he want?
Speaker 2:We are super excited to be here. We are officially into episode two. Last week we got to really get into the gospel, which is our heartbeat, should be the heartbeat of many Christians, all Christians, yeah. And now we want to talk a little bit about something that we have realized has really plagued the church. I think it needs to be addressed, something I like to call consumer Christianity. I feel like it's a plague, at least in the West. It's causing some disarray and I think it's time that we out this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. What do you think?
Speaker 2:I think it's a great idea, that's awesome, so yeah. So let's just jump right in.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like what, um, what I want you to do for me, brooke, if you could, if somebody came up to you and asked you, you brought up that conversation and they were asking you what is consumer Christianity?
Speaker 1:How would you, how would you define that? I think it's where, just from what I see scripture talk about, the true gospel is. I guess it would be the complete opposite of the gospel.
Speaker 1:But it's where the gospel is about you and it's to serve your own selfish ambitions and not what the gospel actually teaches, which is come to Jesus and die. And when he means die, he means die of all self-will, up to whatever that looks like, and it's his will be done, not your will be done. So yeah, I think that's what it is. I think consumer Christianity is where you begin to see where the gospel can, like, kind of serve your purposes and plans and will above what God really wants for your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree, and I think there's, there's a. Uh, I think it can be. There's two, two ways we can go about talking about this. There's two aspects. There's consumer Christianity in the sense of the individual and how they just want to consume things. I just want to, uh, go to this particular church organization building service because it serves me right. Uh, you'll hear this a lot in conversations when people are quote unquote, church hopping or looking for a church. That is things they like about it. Oh, I really like the pastor, I really like the style of sermons, I like the style of worship music.
Speaker 2:It's got a great program childcare program and all of this stuff is really that type of language, fits into the consumer, um, consumerism idea for the individual. But then we've got a whole nother aspect of it and that is uh, the, the setting that the people that uh work, uh, for the church organization are actually creating, so the pastors, the leaders, things like that, the environment that they're setting up. And I want to, I want to kick this off with a quote. Hopefully this will fire us right into some deep, good conversation. But I heard this recently. It was by one of my favorite authors. I mentioned him a lot, neil Cole Um, and he says this. He says whatever you draw the people in with is what you draw them to.
Speaker 1:That is intense.
Speaker 2:So I know you've heard before cause we talked about whatever you draw them in with, you have to continue to do right, to maintain them or keep them, but I'd never heard it put this way, and I thought that was even both true, but even more of an intense quote. Whatever you draw them in with is what you draw them into.
Speaker 2:That's a word right there for sure, and it makes I mean it makes total sense, because you think about it Like when Jesus went around, the message he was preaching was bringing P. He was bringing people to himself. That's right. And so even Paul himself says we read this before. It was first Corinthians, Is it two or three? Yeah, he talks about I didn't come with you with wise and persuasive words of wisdom, but in a demonstration of the Spirit's power, and I sought to know nothing among you but Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So he's basically saying I have wisdom, I have a lot of education and all these things, but when I come to the person that is either being converted or I'm trying to bring the good news to, I make sure that I want to. I want to purely have the message of Christ in Christ crucified. Why do you, why do you think that is?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's because, you know, if you come with a lot of words and teaching like, I think you're actually drawing people to yourself more than you're drawing them to actually Jesus himself.
Speaker 1:I think, when you talk too lofty or make yourself sound too cool which we've been guilty of that you and I like we know a lot and like we've gone into rooms where maybe we shouldn't have shared that much, and then you leave and you're like, ooh, I think I did too much, you know, and I think what we realized quickly was that it actually creates an environment where people are dependent on your intelligence more than their intimacy with Christ and actually going to Jesus for the answer, cause they start to find the answers in you, um, or feel like you're the one with all the answers you know.
Speaker 1:So I think that's one reason why Paul is like hey, I don't come with a bunch of you know eloquent speech, but I actually come very humbly with simple words and power, and I think, too, realizing the power part of it is is because you can't do these miracles in and of yourself, like those miracles. The scriptures say draw you to Christ Jesus, and it says it affirms the message that the person is preaching. So I think that's a big part of why he didn't come with lofty words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, that's another danger I didn't even think of. But not only people being drawn into whatever. Whatever it is that you're offering, whatever the church is offering, say it is programs or a bouncy house, you know whatever you can write in the blank.
Speaker 1:But also in another respect, if the person is really just shining their gift, then that could actually be drawing the person to themselves, the personality, but I mean I think that's the stem and the root issue of like consumer Christianity is because they have like a really charismatic pastor who has a really great personality and a great stage presence, or they're a really strong teacher and they use lots of words and they over articulate everything and talk about everybody's head so everybody like marvels at their abilities, you know, and all these things.
Speaker 1:And I think that's when you create that environment, you produce those kinds of Christians. So the manifestation of that is they are self-seeking, consumer Christians, where they just want to be spoon fed just take, take, take. Spoon-fed, just take, take, take. And they never actually learn what true sacrifice and in dying and actually begin to be true disciples themselves to Jesus, because they stay connected to the source of the charismatic pastor or the really eloquent speaker, which then just manifests in everything else in their life. They're just consumers. It's the same if you raise your children and you never let them learn how to hold a fork or a spoon, you're going to be spoon feeding them for the rest of their lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it backfires.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it backfires. So I think a lot of pastors need to like be quiet more Um and like actually give them instructions and things to obey and like actually don't move past that until they obey it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The same thing with the kid Like, you're not going to give him a driver's license if he can't follow the rules with permit Right. So he's going to fail the test, he's not going to get the car or the license and the responsibility that comes with that. So why are we giving a bunch of Christians more lofty teaching, more material, more things, more meat per se, which that's a whole nother topic of what it actually means to like live on spiritual meat, you know and actually apply that. But um, I think what happens is you produce these consumer Christians and I think pastors are tired because they're like, why aren't they doing what I'm saying? Well, you've never really taught them what to do, you've just taught them to suck from you, you know.
Speaker 2:Yep, so it teaches. You're kind of, you're almost teaching uh, christians to live in the flesh. Yes, do you know what I'm saying? But it's like you know how can we blame people if the setting and the environment that we're creating appeals to the flesh Right? You had, you know, spoke about something about that recently without giving too much information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't want to like blast the church this is about, but, um, some may get it, some may not, but, um, I, I'm very passionate about this because which I say that a lot cause I'm a very passionate person and I'm passionate about.
Speaker 2:You know, I was watching through. I don't mean to cut you off but real quick, I was watching through the episode you know, episode that we did and realize that you're like, I was waiting for that moment. But then I thought you know that's a good thing If if every episode you're saying you're really passionate about this.
Speaker 1:Then we're talking about well then, why are you know, why are we here if we're not talking about what we're passionate about? So I feel like every week is going to be like I'm so passionate about this. You know I have lots of passions, you know, um, um, there, I hope they're all. I mean, I believe they're all of the Lord, you know cause I think he put them there, cause that's my prayer every day, but, um, anyway, so I'm very passionate about this topic, specifically in the season that we're in. You know, god takes you through different seasons where he teaches you different facets of holiness and righteousness and all these things.
Speaker 1:And right now I feel like the Lord's really like honed in on the flesh and the spirit. Um, spirit to me, like to differentiate what those two are actually and how to always operate in the spirit and not operate in the flesh, because the scripture says whenever you operate in the flesh, it reaps destruction and death. We don't want either one of those. Just one moment in the flesh could actually lead to death and destruction of your salvation, of your life, whatever the case may be. So that's really scary if you think about that, Like one moment of drunkenness could destroy your life and everybody else around you, you know. And then the scriptures say that if you sow to the spirit, you actually reap joy and peace, right and salvation in the end, all be all. And so I think that the church doesn't know what that is. Because, unfortunately, I think that the church doesn't know what that is. Because, unfortunately, I think, if your goal is to have bigger buildings, better programs, a better coffee shop, an arcade, an X, y and Z, better men's conferences, women's conferences, children's conferences, all the things, I think what happens is you're actually stimulating the flesh more than you're activating the spirit and believers around you.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, like I was driving down the road a few days ago, a couple of weeks ago, and I'm driving down the road and I'm not really thinking about much at the moment and it just the Lord said to me and my spirit. He said um, pastors who are in the flesh, they throw fleshy type conferences and stimulations of the fresh flesh because they themselves are gratifying their own flesh. They're not necessarily feeding their spirit like they're supposed to. So then what manifests through that is they begin to attract or put out fleshy things. So like we had a scenario where we were Justin and them were at a church situation where they had, you know, an arcade and a rage car where you could go. Smash this car and you know this candy bar, free candy and all the food you can eat.
Speaker 1:And so, as I heard you in, like the best lights and the best music, and my oldest son was like I thought I was going to have a seizure when I was listening to the music because it was so intense, you know, and the lights were so crazy when I was listening to the music because it was so intense, you know, and the lights were so crazy. And so I said, when y'all were telling me the whole thing, I just hear physical stimulation, gluttony and all these acts of the flesh, you know, visual, all these visual things and stuff like that. And it just really burned in my heart because I looked at Justin, I said was the gospel preached? And he said kind of, and I'm like kind of Like what you know if you leave and you think you hear kind of to the gospel. But that was the whole point of this meeting.
Speaker 1:But I think everybody got really full and like really happy in the flesh, but their spirits were not stretched or grown and I think even too, the Lord gave me a vision one time, that of I actually was like asleep and he woke me up. It was kind of early in the morning. I'm like Lord, what do you like? What do you want to talk about? So I'm sitting there waiting and I have this vision of like this blue kind of shaped person. It kind of looked like a mannequin and it was kind of in shape, but thinner and small. And then I saw this other type mannequin figure and it was bigger, bulkier, stronger and all of a sudden, the bigger, bulkier, stronger one started to eat the smaller one. And I'm like what are you trying to show me here?
Speaker 1:I was a little freaked out, you know, and the Lord quickly quickened my spirit and he said Brooke, if you begin to fast and deny your flesh of what it wants, your spirit will become stronger and it eats away at the flesh. So if you truly want to be a spirit led believer, you have to deny fleshy things, what feeds you and stimulates your flesh, your visual, your senses, all those things, even food, you know. And if you want to stay in the spirit, like fast often, you know. And so I was just sitting there thinking about that, like are these pastors like fasting for days, weeks and months before they throw this conference. Because if so, I think it would have been a real call to repentance and not like a lights camera action show. And you know, it could have been a like a, it could have been a TV documentary. It was so enthusiastic, you know.
Speaker 1:So, I think, just being very aware of that. But also, if you're pushing out fleshy stuff, it's because you're in your flesh. Then you reproduce. That the bible says like you literally produce what you are. You know, like if you stay attached to christ, you're going to get christ. If you're not attached to christ and you're not attached to a good vine, you're not going to get good things out of, you're going to get bad fruit. You can't have a tree with half good fruit and half bad fruit.
Speaker 2:It's got to be all good. You should get orange juice. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's like you can't. People are like well, they got some good fruit and some bad fruit. Well, it's either one or the other. Like now can people have character, things they're building on and developing, absolutely Like that's the thing, but like you can't. You know, be the kindest person in the world but also like a pedophile at the same time. Those apples and oranges don't stay on the same tree, you know what I mean. So, um, maybe I shouldn't have used that particular example. That was large, but anyways, I said it. So yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you think, like, do you think people cause I always think about this I'm like are people aware, aware of this? Like right, and they're just doing it anyway. Or do you think there's, you know, intention behind it, like why are we not aware that that we're just feeding and gratifying the flesh? Because, I mean, I think a lot of people would argue well, we do these types of things to draw in unbelievers or draw in people kind of like along the lines of become all things to all men so that some might be saved.
Speaker 1:But I struggle with that scripture because I don't think Paul came into Rome like with lions and like horses and chariots, you know because that's what they did.
Speaker 1:Like he didn't you mean like you struggle with that interpretation of that scripture Because I think what that means is that like culturally, you come into their environment and you, if they wear head coverings, you wore head coverings If they wore, if they cover. It's like when we moved to Africa, like knees was an extremely offensive thing to for a woman to show a knee and a shoulder. You know they could nurse everywhere and like, be very free in other ways, but like knees and shoulders were culturally just extremely disrespectful to show. So we made sure all women had their knees covered and their shoulders covered. Do I necessarily have to do that in America? No, because we don't see that as offensive. So I think it's more of that context, because if you're putting all that out there and the crowd you're trying to get in is drawn into that, they might not be the right crowd you're wanting to draw.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:Like Jesus didn't give out the fanciest of the fancy. He actually draw them to the hottest place, the desert outside of town, where there was no food and water, and he's like, yeah, we're going to have a meeting out here in the middle of nowhere, and then at the end he provides food for them. But he didn't do that in the beginning. They didn't know that they were going to be fed and fed. Well, you know that came after it. But then it says after he did that he knew some of them were coming just for to be fed.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So you realize he doesn't do that. But two times feed a group of people, I'm sure he had more crowds than just two times that we see in scripture, those two times like he didn't do that every single time because he really he was trying to show them. It's not about just the bread, the natural bread, it's like I am the bread of life, you know. So if you're drawing people in, just like that quote says, you got to maintain that to keep them, because some of them are not there with genuine hearts. If you had to draw them in that way, yeah.
Speaker 2:So two points I want to make because, as you're saying that, I'm thinking you want to know what the main difference is honestly like how I think you set the context to interpret that scripture properly in and against what we do nowadays is that those are go scriptures, meaning they're talking about becoming all things to all men as you go, so you go.
Speaker 1:That's so good You're going into their environment.
Speaker 2:So obviously you're not gonna be all weird going into their environment and then be like what in the world is going on. You may dress like they dress or whatever in that environment.
Speaker 1:So it's a different story than you creating the environment and then drawing them into. That. That's such a good point, you know, because I just picture, like your home, like you're not going to if you're inviting someone over and you know that they, you know, like a certain kind of music, but it's unholy, you're not going to put. You know, I don't even know anybody Taylor Swift on your TV because unbelievers come over. No, like that's. Your put liquor bottles out, yeah, but you don't drink. You know that's weird.
Speaker 2:So it becomes like the question of you know Jesus, saying you're in the world but you're not of the world, that's right, but yet we are trying desperately so hard to mimic the world and I think what happens is going back to intention. I can't judge someone's intention or anything like that, and I honestly think that most intentions are good, like I would lean towards people. It's not like people are like genuinely wanting to harm people or people to be in the flesh or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I think people are desperate for people to know Christ.
Speaker 1:Well, I think too, we've created this. Well, this is also a sin this jealousy, envy, competitive Christianity, where old church over here's got lights and a smoke screen and a fog and old church over here doesn't. So a crowd's being drawn and now we're tit for tatting and trying to become the biggest and the best when, uh, necessarily, that's like actually anti-biblical, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, no, I agree, there's that competition aspect but and then we try, because I remember first, like when I was first born again and we were in that setting of like people constantly saying, um, it doesn't matter about the numbers and all this stuff and then I would watch, and all the actions were geared towards numbers even when we went on the mission field one of the biggest struggles was that, like, honestly, when we were raising support to go on the mission field I was, was thinking to myself I'm like, honestly, I hope a lot of like church uh organizations
Speaker 2:don't support us, because I felt this pressure of man within a month or two of being down there. We've got to give them numbers, otherwise they're going to pull their support because they need something to uh, you know, advertise, advertise back to their congregation that this is where your money is going, right as when, when we had partnerships with individuals who prayerfully considered to give uh, it was more, so we could have those personal relationships and be like, hey, this is, this is what's taken place.
Speaker 1:And like?
Speaker 2:honestly, we're not. There's nowhere in the Bible where it says to measure because somebody signed a card or raised their hand. Like people are like oh, we had 423 salvations. Like how do you know? How do you know? We say that with such confidence and it's like you don't, you don't know that and uh.
Speaker 1:I was part of that 429, a hundred times and I was not bored again.
Speaker 2:So now you go under a list of uh, of list of churches. You know 180 people got saved, but you got saved twice that same year, so who knows what it's like Exactly. You got to subtract. And rededications, and all this stuff we're like, but it's not about the numbers, it's not about the numbers, and then we go into those explanations and stuff.
Speaker 1:I think, even going on that topic, I remember we never really actually wanted any like he said churches to support. That was kind of a mission of ours, like we wanted people who felt led by God to do it. But we did have one church come to us and ask for us to be them to support us. But when we, when they asked, we sat down with the pastor at lunch and we told him we're like, dude, if you want us to come back with like this many numbers and this much salvations and this much this and all that, I'm like we're not going to do it to you. We're not going to do that Like because when we go overseas, like we could preach to 50, sometimes 100 people or more and I can't tell you that 10 of those that raised their hands actually born again until two to five years from now when I actually see fruit in their life and honestly I really can't tell you till we all get to heaven and God says you're faithful, come on in.
Speaker 1:You know like, yeah, there's fruit in people's life and you can know who's genuine and who's not, through the spirit within you resonates with the spirit within them. But I don't think that like I can say I't, say I cannot say from a crowd of people who said yes to Jesus, until I walk with them and true discipleship for some period of time to see the fruit. And there's some people I've walked with for three years at some point and have completely went wayward after three years and you're like they're doing great and life hits them hard and things happen and the next thing, you know, they're bitter and unforgiving and they walk away because they're just mad at life and now they're just consumer Christians again. You know, and it's scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but the thing is is we've created a culture where there's the expectation, of the pressure is on us.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:That other people you know give their life to Christ and they walk it out and all of this stuff um you know, give their life to Christ and they walk it out and all of this stuff. And I've felt that early on that pressure of maybe somebody that you led to Christ or you discipled and they walk away or whatever.
Speaker 2:And then I read this little scripture in Mark, chapter four, that talked about the soils. That's right. And you know, jesus says like all the parables, like if you are built upon that one parable, if you don't understand this, you won't understand any of them, that's right.
Speaker 2:And so it's really important to understand that even Jesus was saying, not just with us but even with himself, that there would only be a certain percentage or a portion of people that the seed was spread to, that it actually stuck, and so that's kind of encouraging in a weird way. Encouraging in that he's talking about like 25 percent success, right, and you know, further scriptures go on to, or other scriptures go on to explain further that our job is to dispense the seed, right, right, and so it reminds me of this I heard a guy say recently. I've heard a few people talk about this, about the whole idea of goal setting. Right, and they're like don't goal set, because when we set goals, we're setting goals and we're basing our expectation on a result, but a lot of times we can't control the result, so you're going to constantly be let down because you can't. You don't know if the result's going to happen or not. That's right.
Speaker 2:What is something better to do? Well, why don't know if the result's going to happen or not? That's right. What is something better to do? Well, why don't you set expectations, commitments to I'm sorry, set commitments to the process? Right, meaning, I can't tell you if I'm going to read the Bible through in a year, but I can tell you what I'm going to read it every day. That's so good, do?
Speaker 2:you know, what I'm saying, yeah, and then guess what happens. The majority of the time the results come because you're focused on the process. Well, I think translating that into what scripture teaches us is that you're responsible to plant seeds the seeds of the gospel and the Bible specifically says God is the one who brings the growth right. Paul says that when he's like some water.
Speaker 2:Right, Some plant the seeds, some water, but it's God who brings the increase, who brings the growth. Now, the weird thing is is that we put so much focus on the growth that we write curriculums and books on how to grow your church, the very thing that God said leave up to me, Leave it to me Because he knows who's genuine.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying? Yeah, Like, when we begin to build the church, we end up attracting people that are not genuine and all of a sudden we have a messy, sloppy church. You know?
Speaker 2:church, right, so yeah, but to me it's just like these. The reason that we're having this conversation is because I want somebody to be sitting there. That was me, you know, years ago, listening to others who were bringing up this stuff and having the revelation of, oh my goodness, like I don't have to have that pressure and I cause. I remember getting to a certain point you may remember this when we were kind of serving and, uh, you know, leading music and doing just these different things and like these Bible studies, and so there's nothing wrong with that. I hate to like even, you know, talk about it in this way Like it's a bad thing. It's not a bad thing, but I remember, after a couple of years of doing it, feeling this pressure to go on Sundays, to go on Wednesdays and I didn't know what it was I started to feel this burden that got heavier and heavier, and heavier, and then, on top of that, I would condemn myself because I didn't really want to go Right.
Speaker 2:And do you remember the moment where it hit us, where we were preparing I think we were preparing to go on the mission field? And we had been meeting with believers all week in homes at dinner tables having the most amazing conversations about Christ that were complete, spontaneous, organic conversations but consumed with Jesus and scripture and all these things, and like it was just so beautiful. It was life-giving, like we gained energy from it.
Speaker 1:And then Saturday night would come and I would get this pit in my stomach because I had to wake up and get early or wake up early and get ready for church, doing real church, and then we were having to go to where we had to perform at a church.
Speaker 2:That's it. It was religion.
Speaker 1:And it was religious and like, honestly, by that Sunday I'm like gosh. I've done more church than I have in my whole lifetime and I actually want a Sabbath today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you feel condemned because you're like I just want to chill. Today, when that burden, when the when I know we've mentioned it before, but when I began to ask the Lord the question what is church? Better yet, what is the church? And he began to show us in the scriptures.
Speaker 1:And we're not talking rogue Christianity guys, no, like where you're out, like screw the church, I'm going rogue, I'm doing this all on my own, like we are submitted to a community and body of faith.
Speaker 1:You know, we just moved to Texas with four, almost five, five one other family's not here yet but five families like because we believe in accountability, you know like so they can be in our lives and a part of our lives, and if we're getting outward or they're getting wayward like, we can be like hey don't do that, you know. So, um, we're not talking about rogue Christianity here. What we're talking about is removing religious traditions that are not biblical, so that, and removing fleshy gospels and teachings, so that people can actually manifest the true gospel of Jesus that the Bible talks about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I want to show people something real quick. If you're listening, I'll mention it. If you're listening on the podcast, on the audio version, but for people that are watching, uh, on YouTube, there was a book I read in 2018, which is funny because it's 10 years, that's a decade after it came out and, um, it's actually called pagan Christianity, so it looks like this. It's written by a guy named Frank Viola and also a guy co-authored by George Barna, who runs the Barna Research Group, which has some amazing statistics on discipleship and the church and things like that.
Speaker 2:It's really cool. But this was really eye-opening and it's a very controversial book but it goes into basically exploring the roots as you mentioned, tradition, exploring the roots of a lot of our traditions and it was very eyeopening for me. And I think and he even knows this, frank knows this that the book, if you just read alone, could lead you to just be frustrated. But that's why it's not a standalone book.
Speaker 1:He's written other books like Finding Organic Church and things like that, because you have to have somewhere to get your channel, your frustration in a healthy way, because it is frustrating when your veils are lifted off, your eyes to the traditions of everything, sure, but it can be bad. But if you actually seek the Holy Spirit in it, it's going to lead you into like true life, giving discipleship in church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, giving discipleship in church, yeah. But if you've ever asked yourself it's funny chapter one is called have we really been doing it by the book? Because so many pastors will say we're a?
Speaker 1:Bible-believing church right A Bible book.
Speaker 2:And then they'll stand up and the first thing they say is welcome to the house of God. And I'm like well, that's against.
Speaker 1:That's an old Testament understanding right there. Jesus said he is the body we are the body of Christ.
Speaker 2:And so he came and tore down that temple, that religious system, uh, so that we could be the living temple of Christ. And so we're. We're making all these statements. That's my point. We're making all these statements that are completely contrary to what we say. We believe in, what the Bible actually teaches. So he goes through things like where did the church building come from? The order of worship, or like the liturgy, the sermon, the pastor position itself.
Speaker 1:Hello, the fact that you know that word is used like that is only one time you know, in the scripture in Ephesians, chapter four, the biggest emphasis on all of Christianity is becoming or being the pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have things like the you know the, what's it called like the main pastor in a church or whatever and the associate pastor and the worship pastor and creative pastor and all these different things, and it's like those things are not biblical. But yet we're very glad to do all of those things without it being biblical.
Speaker 1:But other things like the gifts of the spirit will challenge those things.
Speaker 2:Right, Um, but it goes into Ooh, chapter eight is on tithing and clergy salaries. Like that gets intense, Like it's a, it's a, it's a deep study, not one. I don't want to say deep study, but it goes into like really understanding how these things came about in tradition and whether or not they're actually rooted in scripture or not. Same thing going into baptism, the Lord's Supper that was something that was really eye opening to me was the fact that what we call communion or the Lord's Supper was not something separate from a gathering with a full meal together where they broke bread in the midst of a meal.
Speaker 1:You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:But now, because our setting has changed, we've separated it and turned it into it's just juice and a cracker, and it kind of like loses its power.
Speaker 1:You can go eat fried chicken and go take a nap after.
Speaker 2:Right, right, and so it's just this, you know, goes in excuse me, goes into even Christian education. And we had a conversation just recently about ordination with somebody you know what I'm saying and so some of your light bulbs may be going off right now where you're like, wow, I've never thought about this stuff, like why do we put all this focus on the ordination, like the way we do and stuff, and like you know, some of these questions will really drive you into the scriptures to see what it actually says. And if you want to say, like man, I'm a real Bible believing, bible following Christian, then you should actually seek some of these answers out in scripture.
Speaker 2:That's what we did and how we started to realize that a lot of these things were not only not scriptural, but they're actually hindering the body of Christ a lot of these things were not only not scriptural but they're actually hindering the body of Christ and that's.
Speaker 2:And so again, I mentioned this a lot. But people may say, wow, you sound really critical on the church and I'm like, no, we love the church, we love the body of Christ, that's why we've given our life to serve the body of Christ and to make disciples and stuff like that. So, just like Jesus in the book of Revelation when he sees something that is hindering the bride, jesus in the book of Revelation when he sees something that is hindering the bride, you see, almost like a righteous frustration.
Speaker 2:That's right, because those things are coming against the maturity of the bride.
Speaker 1:Well, who did he come frustrated at? It wasn't the sinners. No it was the religious people Correct, it was the traditions, the systems. That's who he was frustrated with and it's the same frustration we have. It's this righteous frustration with stop putting chains and yokes and weights on people that are not of God. Yeah, stop it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's the same righteous frustration. But then you same religious people come wag your fingers at every little thing that people who are truly just trying to be disciples of Jesus like you wag your finger at all those things. And it's like who do you look like in the Bible more when you read it? Like, take off your false, you know lenses and actually read it clearly. And Paul even says like, do not judge yourself too high or too low, but accordingly like where are you actually at in your relationship with the Lord? Is it religious or is it actually? You're fully, 100%, surrendered a laid down sacrifice that if you you know your body was to hit the ground, it would produce seeds around you kind of situation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think you know the toughest question I think you've asked this question to me before is, like you know, say you're, you're, you are a pastor, a leader, whatever, and your record, you start to recognize this like wow, we've been doing this. Like where do you go from there?
Speaker 1:Because now you get a job, go get a job, because if you, do explain, do explain.
Speaker 1:Why do you like that so much? I don't know. You laugh pretty hard. Anyways, I know when Justin really likes them. I know that.
Speaker 1:Laugh, but go get a job, because as soon as you remove your livelihood from your ministry, that was the Holy Spirit. I'm sorry I failed it, but as soon as you remove your livelihood from your ministry, it doesn't matter. You just actually can do what Jesus commanded you to do. But if your livelihood is your ministry, you're going to do anything to keep her afloat and you're going to do any, even if it's compromised or even if it's adding to the word of God or even if it's putting yokes on people. That's why John the Baptist I just read it to my kids this morning John the Baptist rebuked the Pharisees when they came out to see what was going on by the Jordan, baptizing people.
Speaker 1:He's like who warned you, brood of vipers from the coming wrath, and he's like bear fruits worthy of repentance because y'all are the problem. He didn't say that to every other person that was coming for baptism. He only spoke that to the Pharisees because John the Baptist knew the mission. He knew they were the problem. He knew they were the ones hindering the people from coming to truly know Jesus and hindering them from knowing God. And so get a job. That's the first thing you need to do. Get a job, remove the pressure of your all, all your finances coming from the body and and actually contribute into society and be a light in the world Like you cannot.
Speaker 1:I remember one time I had a word. We were at a church service. This was years ago, but when I prophesied it I had a very small view. You know. You know when you're first in Christ or even late in Christ, and you have a skewed mindset of church and things like that, you prophesy out of that place. Even though the word might be accurate, your version of the word is kind of what you try to do is you try to interpret it.
Speaker 1:Like the.
Speaker 2:Lord gives you a word and then in your delivery, you try to interpret it for them With your small-mindedness. You know what.
Speaker 1:I'm saying your box-mindedness. And I remember saying God giving me this word like the little song this little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine. It was rolling in my head like a reel this little light of mine, I'm going to let it shine. And all of a sudden the Lord said these four walls are.
Speaker 1:And if a pastor is sitting inside of a church building or at home behind a computer screen spending 20 to 30 hours a week preparing a message, first of all, yeah, I'm not even gonna go there a message and they're not actually out being the light, how do you have the right to go and teach others how to go be the light in the world if you haven't even really applied that yourself and you've spent hours and years of studying and in school? I'm like where's your disciples? You don't have time to make disciples because you've been in seminary for the past X amount of years in school and now you're just under a debt behind a desk, like preaching a message that you're regurgitating from your seminary time. So it's like remove all of that, go get a job, be a light in the world, make a real disciple, and then you actually can talk from experience and not from your curriculum.
Speaker 2:That's a good point, because Paul never got so good at teaching that he stopped making disciples.
Speaker 1:He was always discipling and there is times to go sit away with God, like Paul went away and sat with the Lord and let Jesus Christ himself teach him. That is not seminary school.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's just being in the presence of God, pursuing righteousness, holiness and intimacy. And then he was impelled to go out into the world and then create disciples, and it just happened around him. You don't have to force it. If you are carrying the light of Jesus Christ, and people will be drawn to you because you are sitting on a hill and people are drawn where there is darkness and no light. They are drawn to the light.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I get it. Sometimes when I'm talking to you like cause cause I've had so many of these conversations with people I can hear the naysayers and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Like you know, cause I've wrestled a lot with like clergy salaries and stuff like that, like script you know, going and studying scriptures on leadership and church structure and things like that, and like those who preach the gospel should get their living from the gospel and stuff, and we've so twisted these scriptures and taken them out of context because a lot of them would mean like okay, we're every Christian supposed to be paid. Then you know Right, and that's not what it meant. Because we can look at the example of other believers in the New Testament and what they did, Even Paul like denied those things.
Speaker 1:Well, paul says I deny the right to do that because I will not hinder the gospel from going out, because if I start asking for money I could hinder it.
Speaker 2:But even in that sense it's just not even comparable, because it's not like Paul was saying you know, get a paycheck. So I can have a salary and all that stuff and a lot of people will hear that as, like you know, attacking, you know it's for, it's honestly for your love for everybody, it's your love for pastors and leaders and stuff like that, because we've realized the freedom in detaching like you said, detaching you're living your dependency on those things so that you can actually freely preach and do what God has called you to do, and so what happens is when you're, because this is the I just hang on.
Speaker 1:I'm hearing in my heart right now like the whole topic of this is consumer Christianity, right. Hearing in my heart right now like the whole topic of this is consumer Christianity, right. If you, the pastor, the shepherd, the leader of the flock, are the consumer you're consuming from your people, like what are you going to reproduce consumers? Like get out of the mindset of consuming yourself so that the flock that you actually lay your life down for, technically you're supposed to, will actually also go be selfless and not consumers themselves. They'll go give the gospel freely because they've been given it freely. Yeah, you know, like so good.
Speaker 2:And it's going to. That's the thing. It's going to free you. It frees you, it's going to free the pastors and the leaders from from feeling that weight of I have to do this. I can't say certain things or I'm overwhelmed with the burden of you can't shepherd 2000 people, you can't shepherd 500 people, like it's too much, and so that's why we just start hiring more and more pastors and, especially, have a healthy family on top of that Right.
Speaker 2:But what I was going to say before is when you are, the system that we've set up is basically there is an event that takes place two days a week. You go into this event. It's set up in an auditorium as you're going in to be entertained with music, lights, action, right In a speech. Okay, we're literally creating an atmosphere where people believe I'm coming in to get entertainment and then when they ask for money, you're paying for that entertainment. That's right. So when you pay, this is a lot of people will understand that this is not the way it should be.
Speaker 2:But, a lot of people don't. They come in and they're asked for money, so you pay money. Your expectation in that setting is that you're paying a professional to serve you.
Speaker 2:It's just like going to a restaurant Right. Setting is that you're paying a professional to serve you. It's just like going to a restaurant Right, because we wouldn't pay for a concert ticket and then go in and expect to serve people in the concert. Do you know what I'm saying? That'd be scary. And so a lot of people are like well, it doesn't matter if it's in an auditorium or it's in a living room. And I'm like I beg to differ.
Speaker 2:It changes things, because there's a difference if I walk into a room and there's a stage with a person and a pulpit and a microphone and auditorium seating, versus if I come in the living room and we all sit in a circle or whatever shape, but we're all sitting on couches and chairs and stuff like that. There's a whole different dynamic that environment sets up and I would beg to differ that that environment is actually going to foster. You know, those environments are going to foster two different things. That's right, right, I can't I can't stare at the back of somebody's head. That's right. And then have a, a good relationship with them or a good dialogue with them. So the only thing for me to do is to be entertained. And now what happens is, if I've gone there long enough and I've done being entertained, no matter how good the programs are, I'm going to start looking for something else.
Speaker 2:I get discontent, and that's what creates this cycle of. And then guess what happens? The church down the street has the bigger and better, whatever. And then it starts to grow, and then we're like we're the fastest growing church in our County. Yeah, but have you realized that all of your growth came from the church split down the street?
Speaker 1:Or people down the street church hop to you. So we're saying the body is growing, but really you're just shuffling. It's like a deck of cards.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So all that to say is, I think, how amazing it would be and how amazing, like how amazing it's been, to experience breaking out of that bubble where you no longer have relationship uh, no longer have relationships with non-believers, and now you're in the Christian bubble, to where you actually get back into the world, back into a job, wherever that is be. Oh, start a business, that's right. Right, start serving people to where you're interacting on a regular basis with people who don't know Christ.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:And what happens in there is you start to get that real life, real time experience and interaction with people. And then when you're making disciples and you're preaching and you're teaching or you're shepherding, just because you're not in a pulpit doesn't mean you're not a shepherd, that's right. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, if the Holy Spirit has given you that gift, then you're going to use that gift.
Speaker 1:Some of the best shepherds have never been behind a pulpit. That's what I'm saying. Most shepherds don't want to be behind a pulpit, Right?
Speaker 2:right, right, Because maybe they're not. That you know.
Speaker 1:They're not a teacher or eloquent. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:And so I feel like we're limiting that gift greatly because we're putting in a in a box or whatever. But that's what I want to see. I want to see the body of Christ come alive and be be able to utilize their giftings outside of the context of a church service and realize that it can actually take place in a living room, it can take place in the grocery store, the coffee shop, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:If God's gifted you in that way.
Speaker 2:And then, once you become mature in that gifting or whatever say in like you know what they call the fivefold ministry or whatever then you can start training and teaching and discipling others with that gifting to utilize that and all of a sudden, the body of Christ is, is actually preaching the gospel everywhere, cause we've got these connections and different spheres of influence and there's no longer, I mean. I mean I feel like when we get inside buildings, we immediately start to create an organization and a machine and what we do is we split ourselves off from other other church bodies, um, as where, if you were to meet in a coffee shop or a house or something like that, the walls are down and you can actually have real conversations. You can, you know, the body of Christ can actually unite, uh, under the same mission, and stuff like that. So I think there's just such opportunity that this conversation isn't about just calling out the plague that is hitting or that has been hitting the Western church, but it's also talking about where do we go from there, what do we do?
Speaker 2:And also get excited, get excited because, this isn't something that we're like bringing up Cause I'm like maybe God should start doing something about it. Oh no, it's happening. Yeah, he's shaking things up, it's already happening, he's shaking things up. I've heard a couple of people that have had this vision and maybe we can can wind down on this. But comparing the Western church to the Titanic Right, and I wrote this down. There's a couple couple ideas I want you to comment on this, a couple ideas of how it it's. I think it's comparable to the Titanic overconfidence in its structure. Right, the Titanic was claimed to be unsinkable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's crazy Right.
Speaker 2:And so we've. We've built up this structure of the people that have taught us before us and, if we just get the right system, programs and structures like we're unsinkable Belief that the institutions and the traditions are unshakable, similar to the Titanic's unsinkable design. Second, the Titanic ignored warnings, Disregarding signs of spiritual danger or decline, much like the Titanic ignored there's an iceberg in front of me.
Speaker 2:What if, like, god is putting this in the hearts of the people, hearts of the body of Christ and I know that we're not the only ones, because there's an iceberg ahead. I've said this so many, so many times, countless times, that I believe God is doing this because he's preparing us for something. It could be anything. I throw this out there like, say the government took away the 501c3 status of the church, right. What would we do? Say you know COVID hits and you can no longer go to the building. Now we're just stuck watching church on a screen because we think that's the only other option. Like, we don't know how to gather outside of that setting. That's right, as you can see in other places other countries and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:The underground church flourishes when it knows what to do outside of the systems. Programs and structures Focus on superficial outward appearance. So how it looks magnificent. Look at this, look at the structure, look at the building, look how many people we have, look at the lights, the camera, the action. So I got here um emphasizing appearances, the buildings, the programs, over deeper spiritual needs, like over the needs of what actually was taking place on the inside. They didn't even have enough lifeboats, right, yeah, why, that takes up too much room. I know we might need that in case of an emergency, right? False security, assuming that past success guarantees future relevance, misplaced confidence.
Speaker 1:That's right.
Speaker 2:Basically, they're measuring the wrong thing. And lastly, division in crisis, lack of unity and direction during crisis, leading to fragmentation similar to the Titanic's chaotic response. Basically, it hits the iceberg and everybody freaks out.
Speaker 1:And then now let's figure it out. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my hard cry is let's figure it out now. Right, let's figure it out now. If there's an iceberg coming and we're heading straight for it, either let's deter this thing and go around it, or or let's get ready for impact so that in in this is. This is what you, when I've talked to people you've talked to people that have visions and stuff the vision is is that the the ship needs to go down.
Speaker 2:The ship is going to hit the iceberg and it's going to go down, yeah, meaning the whole mega church model and all that, and the lifeboats are going to go out and what the lifeboats represent are these kind of organic church gatherings, house churches, if you will, but it comes from the crash though.
Speaker 1:So the true believers in the church who actually are connected to the vine, they're going to go out and actually be able to reproduce. But the sad part is this percentage is going to be very low because most people in the institute I remember sitting down with a girl one time in my you know seven, eight, nine years ago and was like do you even know what the great commission was? And this girl would have considered herself a strong believer because she was for the most part, and when I she said, she said no, I'm like, so you don't know what the last last words of Jesus were. She said no, so we turned to it there in that coffee shop and I read it to her. She's like no one's ever told me this and I've been in church for most of my life and it sparked a fire in her. And man, she is blazing trails like creating disciples. She's like I will not be the follower of Jesus that doesn't fulfill his last words, his purpose, his mission, and so, unfortunately, I think most of the church is in that predicament where 80% of the church would not even know what the great commission was, or if they knew the actual quote of it. They've never done it or wouldn't even know where to start. You know, ask, ask fellow believers around you how to share the gospel. They don't know how to. They don't know how to share the gospel. We've been discipling some people for years and they're still uncomfortable sometimes. It's like if we're working that hard and still people are like, oh, nervous. I'm like people in regular church like where are they at? You know? So just yeah, yeah, you've got to obey the last words of Jesus, because if you're, if you're not doing that, you're actually going to be quite shocked. Um, when you get to heaven and you make it in by the skin of your teeth, it says that you know.
Speaker 1:First, corinthians, chapter three, talks about Paul. He's talking to them about jealousy, you know among each other and who baptized who, and dah, dah, dah. But after he gets through that part of it, he says to them he's like now, you who truly are building in Christ, like if you're building with crappy materials like hay, wood and stubble and not with precious stones Like I, I'm a diamond, silver, gold, those things he said your work will be tested at the end of your life. And it says the disciple cause. He's talking about discipleship. He said he's talking about the people being the field. You are the worker, they are the field, the workmanship. If you work with crappy materials, it says, they'll burn up and they actually won't make it through the purification process to enter into the kingdom of God. They don't make it through it because they were actually not built with good materials. And it says now you, as the disciple maker, will make it in by the skin of your teeth.
Speaker 2:Right what.
Speaker 1:So like if you're not teaching people to reproduce what Jesus commanded, you might find yourself pastors going in by the skin of your teeth.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And having no one to bring with you, and that's what some of the rewards you receive is from what you reproduced in other people. Yeah, if you have nothing to show for it, then God, that stinks. I just don't want to be that person.
Speaker 2:No, I agree. And if you're sitting at home, you're listening, you're watching and you're like man, I'm not sure I know exactly what the Great Commission is, or I'm not very confident in sharing the gospel, or I don't know how to communicate my own faith or experience and stuff like that. That's okay. That's where it starts. It starts with recognition of that. You know repenting.
Speaker 1:It's not all your fault Like. This is where we've been.
Speaker 2:This is the environment that we've been this is the environment that we've been set in and a lot of how we've been taught and what we've been shown by experience. So it's cool Like go to the Lord, repent, say Lord, I'm, I'm sorry that I miss these things, you know, but don't stay there. Then say Lord, show me, get into the scripture, look at Matthew, chapter 28,. Um, you know 19, and start to look at what the great commission is and what discipleship is and what church is. Read through the book of Acts and just start like consuming that stuff and getting that in you.
Speaker 2:And, believe me, once you get connected in that way and you start to see those things, you'll have new eyes to see what Christ actually wants. I heard a guy say one time it's like it'd be horrible to climb all the way up a ladder to the top of the building. Get to the end of your life and realize that you put your ladder on the wrong wall to the top of the building get to the end of your life and realize that you put your ladder on the wrong wall.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I'm saying? Like, let's actually see what Jesus wants us to do, not just what our church told us we're supposed to be doing, or showed us what we're supposed to be doing. So start there and then, um, you know, pray, pray that the Lord send you someone in your life that will walk you through that.
Speaker 2:Like we should be doing that. We should be in places where, uh, when other believers or new believers need to understand what it's like to live as a disciple, how to, how to pray, how to seek God, how to fast, how to live this life. Uh, we can walk them through that because, that's what Jesus says, the example he set with his disciples. He walked through it in life with them and it was like on the job training.
Speaker 1:It wasn't just information that they got through a sermon. That's right, so that's so good.
Speaker 2:That's good. So I feel like we could talk about a lot more. So we'll probably, you know, continue this, this on into our next episode and kind of get more into a um, uh, a rebuilding conversation about what that looks like, uh, to move forward from there. Uh. But, yeah, had a joy, a pleasure, talking with you Again, my lovely, magnificent, amazing wife.
Speaker 1:He's always trying to make me blush.
Speaker 2:And you guys at home. Thank you so much for tuning in and we will see you in the next episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah awesome.