reChurch Podcast
Welcome to the reChurch Podcast, hosted by Justin and Brooke Knoop.
As we speak, there is a massive number of people leaving the institutional Church...but interestingly, they aren’t walking away from Jesus. Many of us have noticed a significant gap between what we see in the Bible and what we experience on Sunday mornings. Let’s talk about it.
reChurch Podcast
Did You Say YES To The Wrong Gospel | #reChurch Ep. 01
What if much of what you’ve been taught about the gospel is based on misconceptions? In this episode of the reChurch Podcast Justin and Brooke peel back the layers of experience with the American church to explore this very question. From fear-based teachings at Church camp to the superficial gospel often presented on Sundays, we share how these approaches left us questioning the authenticity of our faith, but ultimately led us to discover what Jesus truly says in scripture and how genuine transformation is possible. You don't want to miss this conversation!
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But you can't create the conviction in their heart.
Speaker 2:That's the Holy Spirit's job. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1:That's right, and so you get them to that point and you allow the Holy Spirit to work, but you don't leave them there. That may be a point of like they feel the weight of their sin. That's a good thing. We don't got to do this fluffy, like Jesus loves you and don't feel bad. Don't feel bad. It's like no before you can feel good. Yeah, I know, brooke, what is the gospel?
Speaker 2:Well, I always like to take people to the true response that you see in the book of Acts, because it's the best response possible.
Speaker 2:The sinner's prayer right, no, no, no, no, it's not there. And I remember like when they would do the altar call, I would just run to the front and like fall on my face and like pray, and then at the end of the week at camp we would do baptisms and I would get baptized and like it did not work, it didn't transform me. Why do we try to remove parts or say they're not necessary, when that was just the response Like, why are we adding to or taking away? That's what scares me.
Speaker 1:Do you know why? It's because, all right, welcome to the ReChurch podcast, where we pause to rethink how modern church has strayed from God's original intention and we have some awesome conversations about living out our faith in real time. I'm your host, justin Newb. This is episode one, and I'm here with my lovely, lovely wife, brooke. Brooke, say hello to the people.
Speaker 2:Hello, you're going to make me blush there, lovely wife Brooke. Brooke, say hello to the people. Hello, You're going to make me blush there, Mr Newt.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm excited. I'm excited to kick this off. We've got just mounds and mounds of stuff to talk about. I think it's going to be really good bring a lot of value to people. Today, specifically, we're going to be talking about, honestly, the difference between the true and the many false gospels. There's only one true one, but there are many false out there that are trying to kind of mimic the true gospel, and I think it's not only a dangerous thing, but it's something that I think the church at large has overlooked for many, many years, and I think you correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe we both experienced that we responded to some of those gospels first. For sure.
Speaker 2:We're dealing with the fruit of them, and until somebody brought it to our attention, we didn't even know what we were lacking Right, and I think that's where most of the church is at.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So stick around, you're going to find a lot of value in this and we're going to talk about some practical application of this stuff. In the end, how can we change if we need to, and how can we change if we need to and how can we walk this stuff out. So that's exciting. But since we're just kicking this thing off, like, tell me a little bit about yourself, brooke, you recently had a couple of big things happen, big move happen in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we sure have we. Recently we just moved to the Austin Texas area. That was a huge move. We used to live overseas, actually with each other, like with our kids, and I feel like moving here was actually practically more difficult than moving overseas for some reason. I don't know why that was, but it's been really good. I feel like. I feel like it's starting to feel like home and we're getting settled, yeah, and I think our kids are thriving. So that's exciting. When you, you obey the Lord, it like it works out somehow, even though it seems really off the wall and crazy sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. We've experienced a lot, a lot of big changes over the years, big steps in obeying the Lord, but every time it seems difficult, but on the other end of it we just see massive amounts of fruit. A lot of times. A lot of times you think he's. He's sending you to a certain place to save that place, right, that missionary mindset, Like we're going and we're going to preach the gospel and lots of people are going to get saved, and all this stuff. And you realize that when you get to that place, most of what he was doing was transformative in your character and your heart, that's right.
Speaker 1:And just the yes to obey, because, like we always say, saying yes to one thing means saying no to something else. So, that's awesome, but um, yeah, so tell me, tell me about these false gospels. Is there, is there some specific ones you can think of? And and what are? What are? Let's get into that. What are the? What are the dangers of those things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a few out there that can really get us in trouble. Unfortunately and I'm passionate about this topic, probably one of my most passionate topics, other than a couple other things in my life I enjoy to talk about but exposing what's false in the American church gospel Because, unfortunately, as a little girl like I, was raised in those churches where that gospel was being presented and was being spoken and I was desperate to experience something real. But the gospel I was given didn't change anything in my life, unfortunately, and that made me have to really like question. Well, it made me question if God's even real, or if Jesus is even real, and it made me think that every other Christian around me was, um, very hypocritical, um, and and just not fully real, and who they said they were and this gospel that they preached, you know kind of like like there's an expectation of like, almost like we oversell the gospel and most of the church hasn't experienced it that way.
Speaker 1:So we're like, hey, this is what you should do. And then it's like, once you say yes to whatever they're presenting, you don't really experience those results. So it's almost like a letdown.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I'm like I remember when Justin gave his life to the Lord and he told me I was like good for you, buddy, done that been there a few times like didn't work for me, hope it works for you. And that's so sad that that was my response to you and you really gave your life to Jesus. I had to repent over that quite a few times when I actually met the Lord, because I just shut you down but I didn't know I hadn't experienced the real gospel yet.
Speaker 1:So you're expecting to see the same result in me that you saw, which was very minimal, mediocre at best, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I was thinking about this earlier. You know, um, it's like you start to compare, and I think a lot of nonbelievers could have this argument against the church or what they see, you know, in the church, or what we're displaying at that is, uh, what's so different about responding to Jesus and what you know, what you're saying, and just behavioral modifications, like their argument could be. Hey, you know, I've done this in this 10 step program and I've seen just as many results as you have, right, um, but you and I both know that there's some power to this thing. Like 100%, like God does more than just make you a nice person. 100%, right, what was the? What would you say? Is the gospel that you responded to first as a little girl?
Speaker 2:I feel like it was a little bit of a blend of a couple. For sure. The fear gospel that was like the gospel I would hear at church camp every summer. Tell me about the fear gospel yeah, so I would go to church camp every summer and there'd be this Baptist pastor on the stage and he'd have that voice.
Speaker 2:You know, and I like, and I'm like okay it's just really intense and like kind of scary for a young kid, and they would talk about you know, if you didn't repent right this moment, you were going to burn in hell forever. And I remember like when they would do the altar call, I would just run to the front and like follow my face and like pray, and then at the end of the week at camp we would do baptisms and I would get baptized. And like every summer I went through the same thing, the same cycle, the same repentance, the same baptism, and then for two weeks I would read my Bible and I'd be committed to it and I definitely felt better for the moment in that. But within the matter of two to three weeks I was right back to lying to my parents and looking at things I wasn't supposed to and all those kinds of things. So for sure, the fear gospel, it did not work. It didn't transform me. It gave me enough fear to behaviorally modify my life for a couple of weeks and then you kind of forget about it. That emotional high goes away and then you just kind of go back to what you always have known and nothing really changes.
Speaker 2:So I definitely think that is one of the gospels I've heard, but then in my church church that I would go to every Sunday, it was kind of more what I remember it being like. It's about what you look like and what you wear and how you present yourself, and nobody talked about sin that's actually going on in your heart or a relate. I never remember hearing anything about having a true relationship with God. When I heard that for the first time, I'm like you're telling me, like I can actually talk to God and he can talk to me, and like we can be in this intimate relationship. I'm like what? That seems so weird to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, god seems so distant in that portrayal of him, because and when I'm listening to you I'm thinking you know why is so important to present an accurate biblical gospel is because it gives you a picture of God that's right and depending on that picture of God you you get. That's going to have a lot to do with how you relate to him.
Speaker 2:Well, even too, I think, like I heard a lot of times like the sinner's prayer gospel. Well, even too, I think, like I heard a lot of times like the sinner's prayer gospel like if you just pray this prayer, it'll change your life you know.
Speaker 2:And so I'm hearing this fear-based thing. But I'm also hearing this thing If I just pray this prayer, everything's going to change for me. And it didn't. But the sad thing is about that gospel of just pray the sinner's prayer and you're saved. I thought because I prayed that prayer I was actually saved. But I was never told I had to change. So I just went right back to the old life Now, instead of out of fear, from when I was a child hearing that fear-based gospel. Now I'm like, oh well, I'm saved because they told me if I prayed this prayer and I believed in Jesus, I'm good and I confess that he's Lord, jesus is Lord. But I would be at the bar confessing Jesus is Lord to the person you got to hold on a second.
Speaker 1:You're telling me that the sinner's prayer, that's not in the Bible.
Speaker 2:No, it's not in the Bible. I didn't know that, though, until I actually met Jesus and read my Bible for the first time, because, again, like I said the sinner's prayer, gospel did not drive me to the word of God. It did not drive me to the secret place. Gospel did not like drive me to the word of God. It did not drive me to the secret place. It did not drive me to holiness. It actually gave me a false assurance that I was good. So I still went to the bars on the weekends. I still was lusting after men that weren't my husband.
Speaker 2:I was doing very bad things in the secret when nobody knew, and the crazy part about that is is I was the girl at the bar. Like if somebody said, gd, I'd be like you're going to hell and I would tell them about Jesus. But I'm drunk and I'm about to go home with a guy who I don't even know, and I've done that many times, and I'm just like I was going to hell just as fast as they were. But because I was told by a man, I'm saved, because I raised my hand, I prayed this prayer, and in the moment I actually kind of meant it because I was emotionally stirred Um, but it didn't change me Like the gospel has to change you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, I think a lot of what I what I noticed is a lot of those false gospels intertwine with each other Like you know I was seeing.
Speaker 1:That's why it was so easy to go in and out of those things because there's, you know, the fear-based gospel which ends up putting you in yes, your relationship with God is based off fear. Like I made this decision because I don't, I'm scared of the opposite result. Right, not because I want to be with this person, not because I want to have a relationship with them, but I don't want the repercussions of what will happen if I say no. That's right and if you think about it, it's like. You know, there are a lot of parent and child relationships like that right For sure, and what happens with those children when they get under the household?
Speaker 2:They rebel.
Speaker 1:They rebel right. So what do you think? And what happened in your life?
Speaker 2:when you got out of the household.
Speaker 1:I rebelled when you were outside of that setting, where it was expected of you to act a certain way you rebel Because there was no relationship right, there was no authority there based on your real interaction with the right portrayal of God. And so it's like it's a very dangerous thing, because we've got to take this seriously, because you've got to think like, what does Jesus think when he has fully described himself in the Bible? What does Jesus think when he has fully described himself in the Bible, when we can look at Jesus and see who the Father is and it's right before us? We all have Bibles in our house. You know what I'm saying, the majority of us and we can see that but yet you're preaching this other God. Like what do you think Jesus thinks of that when a person like you, when a young person, turns away because of this poor image that we've represented?
Speaker 2:it's like it's a serious thing. I think it's super serious because there's multiple new tests. Well, two that come to mind new Testament books that discuss like, if there's a false gospel being preached, no matter if it's a person, an angel, whoever like, let them be accursed.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, like, I don't think we actually take that scripture very seriously, but I think it's something we should very walk, in the fear of the lord, in and like make sure that the gospel we're preaching is the gospel that saves from sin, transforms lives and and actually directs the person to the, the the relationship of christ, you know, and letting christ then transform you from the inside out.
Speaker 1:So so, yeah, absolutely yeah. So we talked about the fear gospel. We got into that. That's pretty clear. The I would call the sinner's prayer gospel, kind of like the just believe Jesus exists, you know gospel. I've seen somebody post this recently on Facebook. They said so you believe in Jesus, but you don't obey him. Right, so does the devil Yikes.
Speaker 2:Think on that for two seconds, yeah.
Speaker 1:Got that demon faith? James talks about that as well.
Speaker 2:Right, even the demons believe. Yet they tremble, but they don't repent, they don't change.
Speaker 1:You know, that's really sad. So that's a wake up call to realize like there is a difference between believing in the existence of Jesus. You know, we experience this all the time when talking to people. They'll right in front of your face, they'll be cussing someone out, whatever. Whatever it is, you know, just like no fruit of salvation, and then turn around and be like, well, I'm praying for him or I'm praying for your brother or you know, whatever you know, give me the old Catholic thing and I'm like what are you talking about?
Speaker 1:That scares me more than the person that just rejects.
Speaker 2:Rejects 100%. I think that was more you. You were just. You rejected God and I think that's why God came in so much power in your life, Because when you actually had a real encounter with God, you humbled yourself and you received. I think the sad thing with the church now is like everybody thinks that they're good without really truly self-evaluating where they're at Is there fruit in their lives.
Speaker 2:And most of the time, if you do evaluate, you'll see that your life is kind of fruitless and that's scary. And fruit can represent be shown in many ways the way you speak, the way you act, what happens when you're around people. Do people's lives change after they encounter you? You know things like that because Christ is in you. But one thing I think is really important to note is there's also like this powerless gospel that's preached.
Speaker 2:We didn't even discuss this earlier when we were talking about just the different gospels, you know.
Speaker 2:But this powerless gospel where, yeah, they might preach some repentance, like, yeah, jesus can change your life, but really it's like, you know, you need to repent of your sins, but when you do, you kind of just get a little bit better. And now you just come to church and you serve on Sundays and you open the door for people which there is nothing wrong with those things, be kind, open the door for people, which there is nothing wrong with those things, be kind, open the door for people. But there's more to the gospel than just being saved from sin. But once you're saved from sin, there's more to being a part of the body of Christ, which really is. When I experienced that, being filled with the Holy Spirit, my whole life changed. So there's this gospel out there that's like, yeah, just come, repent of your sins and live a mediocre life, just tell people you love them and that Jesus loves them and move on. And that's really sad that they're missing out on the more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I agree, tell me about that, tell me about your training, because I know I had my own personal transition. For example, with me I had no kind of, you know, religious background and stuff like that. So I would say entering into that relationship with Christ, uh, was a little bit easier because I didn't have all that religious baggage, um, to worry about. But then quickly, uh, the devil tried to get me into religion. That's right. I think your prayers helped me come out of that quickly.
Speaker 1:So it's not like you're totally immune to falling into that because you didn't grow up in a church setting he still tried to get me with religion, and then I had to have a genuine transformative encounter with him, with his power. Like you said, that changed everything from me. But with someone like you who grew up in that setting so you're just like covered in religion you're kind of hurt you know, by the church hurt by quote, unquote Christians, stuff like that, and then you have this transformative experience. Share just briefly about that transition.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I did not know that when you came to be a follower of Christ, that there were gifts involved. I just literally thought it was only about sin alone, you know. But I couldn't get out of it. I didn't know why, I couldn't change my behaviors. But once I truly met Jesus and repented one night, it was well, it was actually daytime, it was a Thursday.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting in my room like I'm so hungry for the Lord. I'm actually watching a podcast from a spirit-filled believer and they were talking about the more of God and I'm like reading through my Bible and it says if you seek, ask and knock, you're going to receive the more. But I didn't understand, even though it said the spirit. I'm like what does that even mean? It said the spirit. I'm like what does that even mean? Because no one had ever told me what that meant. You know, but God is so gracious y'all. If you seek him with your whole heart, you will find him with no pride involved, like you have to just come like a little baby, you know, and I remember sitting on my floor that Thursday afternoon my kids were in daycare, you were at work. I'm like literally crying, like snots running down my face and I'm like God, I know there's more Like what is it that I'm missing? I will do anything to get it. And I'm crying out. And all of a sudden, the presence of God came into my bedroom in a way that I had never experienced, and it felt like this power filled my body, like this peaceful power of God filled my body. And all of a sudden I just opened my mouth because I felt this urge to pray. But when I opened my mouth to pray, another language came out of my mouth and I'm like I'm like stop myself, because my Baptist church growing up told me tongues was from the devil. So I'm like golly, I done got a demon, but I'm trying to talk to God.
Speaker 2:And so I reached out to a friend of mine who I knew would maybe know something about this. She lived in Africa and I messaged her and I was like hey, like this just encounter happened. What, what do I? What is this Like? Am I in trouble? Did I do something wrong? She's like no, you just got filled with the Holy Spirit. Read the book of Acts. And I started reading the book of Acts and I'm like this is in here. Why did anybody not tell me about this and I'm telling you, I went from just an average person who had a hunger for God to on fire, and even I remember making you uncomfortable. You were like I need you to slow your roll. I just wanted you to stop partying and I just wanted you to be a good mom and a good wife and stop drinking. But now you're praying for the sick and they're getting healed and you're hearing things from.
Speaker 2:God and it's happening like oh, so it was a pretty radical encounter.
Speaker 1:It took a while for me to realize what was happening and why I was feeling that way. And later the Lord showed me. Um, he said I remember a guy I was watching. Uh, this guy preached before and he said when, when faith and unbelief are in the same room, one of them's got to get out for real. And so what I was feeling was the discomfort of your faith because it challenged my unbelief.
Speaker 1:And I knew that I could either remain uncomfortable to the point of where I have to leave the room to risk to get my comfort back, or I could actually humble myself, receive the challenge and I could enter into a space where you are and I think, that's the invitation that Jesus has with most people.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:It's like think about when he walked around in the Gospels, when he would approach people Number one he would talk about the people that would actually humble themselves and lose their care or their, their, their, their care or their thought of what they look like in front of people and would just reach out for him.
Speaker 1:Those were the people that were the most blessed, the people he would turn to and say look at their faith. You've got all these like religious quote unquote religious professionals, these Pharisees and Sadducees and religious leaders around and he looks at you know, the person crawling in the street, the woman crawling in the street and is like, look at their face.
Speaker 2:That's right, or?
Speaker 1:or uh.
Speaker 2:I was that woman yeah.
Speaker 1:And those are the people you know, or or blind Bartimaeus, or these people that get ridiculed for the uh, the scene they're creating in front of other people Like you're embarrassing yourself right. And he would turn to them. And those were the people that he not only gave them what they asked for, but he commended them Like he used them as an example Like think about.
Speaker 1:Mary, you know, breaking the perfume and like all these examples we see in the Bible, it's getting to that place, to where you actually, when you hear us talking about, oh, I had an encounter, I had a real encounter with God, I had a transformative Some people may be asking like, well, what does that mean? Look in the Bible, it's those encounters. Does it have to be like crazy miracles and deliverance and all that is happening and I fell out in the spirit and all of that? Not necessarily, but like it's one of those things where the situation happens and you turn around, you get up, you walk out, you start to speak and you're like something is completely different, not slightly different.
Speaker 1:Something is very different. Something inside me changed and that's the difference. We'll get into this in a minute. But that's the difference between a gospel that says follow these rules and a gospel that says come encounter me and I'll walk with you. That's right, I'll walk with you.
Speaker 2:That's right, I'll be with you, right, that's right. That's so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you know we've talked about false gospels, a lot We've talked about, and some of some of the people may be saying like oh man, that's the one I responded to the fear gospel, the sinner's prayer gospel, only believe.
Speaker 2:Jesus exists, the powerless gospel, the powerless gospel. There's the prosperity gospel. Or, like, jesus is going to do whatever I want him to do for me.
Speaker 1:The create Jesus in your own image. Gospel, that's right. Tell me about that real quick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one's a real one. That one, I think, is the sneaky one, because those people that have responded to that gospel, like they look like they're blessed by God because they're getting all these financial blessings and promotions and career blessings and all these things. And they're getting all these financial blessings and promotions and career blessings and all these things and they're serving people in some capacity. They're giving out money, but their life is very selfish and self-seeking.
Speaker 2:It's self-centered, it's a self-centered gospel and so you get all your wildest dreams, you manifest them, whatever you want to call it, but I can promise you that it might not be that that blessing is from the Lord. So you have to really learn how to discern whether a blessing is from God, because you're an obedient child who's laid down your life, been born again, died to self, crucified the flesh, and you're serving the Almighty God in His will and purpose and becoming holy and righteous and humble. Or are you just like I'm going to tag Jesus to my side, manifest my realities, think positive, be good to the homeless person beside me because I might get something in return. Like it's very self-seeking and unfortunately you're going to be the person that will get to heaven and he'll say hey, you built your kingdom on earth. You didn't build it in heaven. Like stored up your riches in heaven, you stored them here on earth and it doesn't pass the test of the fire.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So you're saying if you obey Jesus, you've got to be poor and you've got to live in the dumps?
Speaker 2:I don't believe that one at all, because we're not. I mean, god's blessed us tremendously, but have we been in very hard times because Jesus said give up everything and follow Him Right 100%. We're in a season where we're extremely blessed in a lot of ways, but I've also been in a season where following Jesus didn't make me very blessed in a lot of ways. So, like Paul says, I've learned to live with nothing and I've learned to live with much. And if he said, give it all up again and drop it all and go back to living, you know, for pennies and rice and beans, I'll do it Like go back to Africa and live in the dirt. Like. Whatever he says, I'll do Like I'm not afraid of that because he's shown himself faithful, because I've encountered the real Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that can be that. I think that's why it's so tricky and why I even mentioned that to you was because you can look at two situations and like two people could be financially blessed. Two people could be material blessed. You could look the exact same from the outside, but where that blessing came from?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's where you have to. The Bible says those who are wise and mature in the faith can discern what's righteous and what's evil. And you have those who are immature in the faith. They'll think that every little blessing that comes their way is from God.
Speaker 2:Um, and those who are mature in the faith, they'll think that every little blessing that comes their way is from God. And those who are mature in the faith they can discern like, hey, you've just got a huge blessing, but I don't know if that was from the Lord or not. You have to look at what the fruit produces and if it produces more selfishness in your life, more greediness, more status, because it makes you feel good, because you have this empty insecurity in your life because maybe you didn't get loved by your mom or your dad and now you have to prove yourself to people. Let's check that. Let's check that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I agree, and I think that's good to know too, because I really think that's another thing that's kind of lacking in the body of Christ, and we had to learn it. It takes time. You can't just one day all of a sudden, you just wake up with discernment. Right, there's a gift of discernment. It takes practicing Right right, and Hebrews chapter five says that talks about practicing right, practicing righteousness, learning to discern from you, know good from evil, and things like that. So that's where you can begin to look at somebody's life and see whether or not they're blessed of God or they're not like you said because of selfish motives or whatever.
Speaker 1:What are they utilizing that?
Speaker 2:blessing for and stuff. And you'll notice the people who respond to that prosperity gospel. They still have a lot of hidden sin in their life or even out in the open sin, but then they'll just tag Jesus to God bless me. And it's just not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so God wants you to prosper in all things, but the idea of that whole, you know, just manifest your reality into existence, and making the gospel all about you is, I think, where it gets very dangerous. Because, where selfish ambition lies you know jealousy.
Speaker 2:Every evil thing is there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's ugly Every evil thing is drawn to that. So I think we experience there. Yeah, it's ugly. Every evil thing is drawn to that. So I think we experience that. Yeah, so we could probably just talk for an hour straight about the false gospels out there because the enemy is always kind of reinventing and twisting things into whatever version is popular with our culture.
Speaker 2:Well, now it's. All roads lead to heaven right now.
Speaker 1:But we know that most of the time this is what I've heard at least is when people are trying to find something counterfeit. They don't just spend all their time just studying the different counterfeits. Right, it's good to know about them, to know that they're out there, but they spend the majority of their time seeking the one true thing.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So tell me this what's important about understanding the true gospel? Why would that be? Why would that be beneficial for people?
Speaker 2:to understand it fully. Well, because it will literally transform your life. It'll take you out of a place of um of you know living in sin, whether it's secret or out in the open, and literally set you free and put you into relationship with God. And all of a sudden, you have this piece that surpasses understanding. You have joy that you don't know where it came from, uh, and it just really changed. It changes everything. It changes your life, your family, uh, your spouse, your children, like it transforms your life completely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one thing I've noticed too when we started to sit down and we can share more about this later, about our particular story specifically in how we started sitting together.
Speaker 1:we started sitting together with other believers and meeting together and talking about what is the gospel, Because we found that the majority of people were either they weren't sure or they just weren't comfortable sharing it. And maybe they've been in a church setting for five, 10 years or been believers for a long time, but they just didn't know these basic things. And that's not, there's nothing. Not that there's nothing wrong with it, but it's it's pretty normative, it's pretty normal, unfortunately, and so one of our, our goals and our things that make us excited is seeing believers equipped and trained at least to know the essentials, the foundational principles of their faith, why they believe, what it means, what is the gospel? How do you, how does someone respond correctly, biblically, to the gospel? You know, and not to put you on the spot, but if you had to share, if I was going to ask you say, we just met at a coffee shop or something like that, so you don't have time for a long explanation how would you share that with me, Brooke?
Speaker 2:What is the gospel? Let me say one thing before we jump into there that I feel like is so important and that every person listening on the other side of here understands there is no condemnation if you've responded to the wrong gospel. Yeah, that weight is not on you or on you, it's really on the person sharing the false gospel. But once you hear the real gospel, then it's on you to respond properly. So I want to say there's no condemnation because both of us have been there, you know. So I want to say there's no condemnation because both of us have been there. And I think as well the Bible says like the gospel, when it's preached, it doesn't come out void, it doesn't come back void, to like the person who sent the seed out of the gospel. But at the same time, you have to be the one to respond to it properly. Like if you sit here and listen to the full gospel right now and you choose to harden your heart, that's a response. It didn't go void, you responded, it's just hardening.
Speaker 2:It is fruit, it's not returning void.
Speaker 1:Most people think that that just means something good always happens.
Speaker 2:It's like no, it means you have to do something. There's a response.
Speaker 1:You either get hardened, your heart gets hardened, or you soften to it.
Speaker 2:So I pray that right now, as we share this, that you will soften your heart towards God, towards the gospel, towards Jesus, Because I know he says he's drawing all men to Himself, but not all men respond, unfortunately. But like you said a minute ago, just if I was in the coffee shop and somebody asked me how do I get to know Jesus? How do I get born again? Whatever language they may use, I always first start with salvation is not a destination, it's transformation in your life, here and now. It's not getting out of hell, it's not going to heaven.
Speaker 2:So many people are fixed and fixated on that. But it's actually more about you being rescued from something reconciled to something. What you're being rescued from the true gospel is good news y'all. But you first have to have bad news before you can have good news. And the bad news is is you're a sinner, You've sinned, You've rebelled against God.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, no matter what it is, no matter how big it is or small it is, you have sinned and you're in rebellion towards God. But Jesus came to not only like set you free from sin, but destroy the works of the devil in your life so that you can actually be righteous and holy and pure. So when you hear the gospel, like, hey, I need to be set free from sin. Jesus is rescuing out of your jail cell of sin and he's reconciling you to God. That's the gospel. It's not getting out of hell and going to heaven. You're not in either one of those places yet. The consequence to not responding to the gospel is going to hell. The reward to responding to the gospel is going to be in heaven.
Speaker 1:So some people will separate the place, the environment, from God, meaning hell is what it is because it's void of the presence of God, you know and heaven is what it is, because God is there and we want to be with him. So, people try to separate those things, and that's what you're saying is I want to, I want to, I want to get out of hell and get to heaven.
Speaker 1:Well, that doesn't work, because it's more about getting out of my distance from God right and being with him, being connected to him, because, ultimately, what heaven is is being in the presence of God forever.
Speaker 2:So you have to be rescued from the thing that would send you to hell the consequence, which is your sin. Sin is rebellion, sin is pride, sin is envy, jealousy, lust, anger, frustration, hatred, unforgiveness, drunkenness, sexual immorality you name it. There's many of them out there. If you've acted on any of them, you are a sinner. If you say you're without sin, you're a liar. But we're all short, fall, have fallen short and need to repent. So that's cool.
Speaker 1:Where I was just going to say that's cool.
Speaker 2:Where the law can come into place.
Speaker 1:People are like where does that come into play? Well, some people don't recognize their centers. So if you get to that point and you're like hey, you're a sinner. They're like okay, I've heard church people, I'm that bad, right, you know. And then you start you know, uh, uh, what's the guy's name that uh?
Speaker 2:does the evangelism like that? He's like oh yeah, ray comfort, ray comfort yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's what he's. You know he's really good at and cool because he drops the law, because he's like oh, have you ever lied? Have you ever sinned? Have you stand before God? How are you going to do? You're standing before God and now you got to tell them this is the way I've lived my life. That's right. And there's this moment in a lot of people's eyes where they go oh crap like. I'm not as good as I thought.
Speaker 2:I was Okay.
Speaker 1:You can present that to people, but you can't create the conviction in their heart.
Speaker 2:That's the Holy Spirit's job. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:And so you get them to that point and you allow the Holy Spirit to work, but you don't leave them there. That may be a point of like they feel the weight of their sin. That's a good thing. We don't got to do this fluffy like Jesus loves you and don't feel bad. Don't feel bad. It's like no feel bad. You have to feel bad before you can feel good.
Speaker 2:You know what I'm saying, like you gotta recognize that.
Speaker 1:So say you're talking to me and like you drop it on me, like that, and I'm like crap, what do I do? I am a sinner, yeah, or let's talk about this like Jesus, like Tell me what he did to fix this.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm tracking.
Speaker 1:Like Jesus. What did he do? He came, you know he died. Oh yeah, yeah, talk to me about Jesus.
Speaker 2:Right. So that's what we see in the life of Jesus. Like Jesus didn't come just to give you a better day, a better life. He came to literally set the captive free. Like you have to see yourself as in a prison cell of a better life, he came to literally set the captive free, you have to see yourself as in a prison cell of sin and you have to get uncomfortable in that cell. If you love your sin, you're not going to get out of it.
Speaker 2:But Jesus came to show people. He literally said if I never came, you would have never been guilty. So he came. He demonstrated righteousness, he demonstrated obedience to the Father, he demonstrated power. He also said if I did not do the miracles and signs and wonders that I've done, they also would not be guilty. Wow, so think about that. He did all of those things to show that how we're actually fall very short to the standard. But he says guess what? If you'll repent, I'll put my spirit in you and my spirit will transform you from the inside out. So he didn't leave us with just a condemning message of oh, you're a nasty sinner, kind of like John the Baptist, you brood of vipers. He was actually like hey, you are a sinner. But guess what? If you'll turn from your sin and not go there anymore, I'll actually put my spirit in you.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's really powerful. Yeah, so we don't have to believe in just this message written on pages or ink it's Jesus came, and the life that he lived and experienced is the reason that we can trust. There's authenticity, there's power. Right, he came, he was led by the spirit of God, god.
Speaker 1:Right, he died and then he came back to life god raised him from the dead and then he gave us a path to follow. So you know, we're at this point. So I'm at this point now where I'm like, oh snap, like I'm a sinner and it's more, it's so much more than like oh, jesus died, you know something? What's the gospel? Jesus died, died and rose again. Uh, for your sins, and if you trust and believe in him and confess him with your mouth, you, you know, that's the number you get but to most people that means nothing.
Speaker 1:That's right. You talk to them about what Jesus actually did, what he accomplished, the life he lives in, the example he left for you. So say I'm in this point, right now, we're in the coffee shop, we're only like five, 10 minutes in and I'm realizing um crap, like I'm a sinner and and I'm still. I believe Jesus exists. I believe he existed, and now you're showing me, like you know, what he did in his life, and he died and he rose again. He's alive right now. Like what do I do?
Speaker 2:Well, I always like like to take people to the true response that you see in the, in the book of, because it's the best response possible.
Speaker 1:The sinner's prayer right.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, it's not there. I love to take people to Acts 2, or just even share with them the story of Acts 2. You have Peter and the 12 disciples. A few other folks get radically filled with the Holy Spirit. They start speaking an actual language that could be understood by other Jews that were in the area. They didn't speak the same language. They were all Jews by bloodline, but they were not same-speaking language people. They lived in different parts of the world.
Speaker 2:And so, all of a sudden, you see this supernatural thing take place that was prophesied in the book of Joel. It says that this would happen. So, when it happened, some were perplexed, some made fun of them, but it says that Peter looks at them and says hey, I'm not drunk right now. Actually, this is what Joel prophesied, and I want you to know that you brothers killed. You brothers, he said, have killed the Messiah, the Christ, the one. We saw it with our own eyes. Not only did we see it with our own eyes, like we saw him resurrected with our own eyes and you killed him.
Speaker 2:And it says they were struck to the heart. That only happens first by the power of the Holy Spirit. You know, we sit here and think we're really cool when we have hunger for God. You only have hunger for God because God is drawing you to Him. So they all of a sudden were struck to the heart. And it says someone cried out whoever it was, cried out to Peter and said what shall we do to fix this? And Peter's response was not pray the sinner's prayer. It wasn't raise your hand, it wasn't bow your head.
Speaker 2:Or repeat after me Exactly it was repent, be baptized, all of you, for the forgiveness of your sins. So repentance and baptism deal with sin, right, he said, so that you might receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Well, why are we doing it different?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. Why?
Speaker 2:are we doing it different? So you know, I'm telling you okay, the gospel is being rescued from sin and reconciled to God. That's a good question. Why are we doing it different? So you know, I'm telling you, okay, the gospel is being rescued from sin and reconciled to God. That's the gospel period. But there's a response. People stop at the response. So people are like, oh, okay, I want to be saved from sin, I want to be reconciled to God. And then they just leave you like that Raise your hand, pray a prayer. That's not in the Bible. We have to do it the way that Jesus displayed it and the way that the disciples preached it.
Speaker 1:You mean, I can't just make it more convenient and do it the way that I want to do it, and then complain when I'm not experiencing what the Bible says I should be experiencing.
Speaker 2:Why are we doing that? I don't understand it, just baffles me.
Speaker 1:But what about if a pastor says we're a Bible-believing church and then he does it?
Speaker 2:Well, why aren't you doing it? You know what I'm saying, but I go to a Bible-believing church, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I get it. I get it and I mean it's so clear, Like it's so clear in the scriptures, and what we want to do is we People get afraid that it's in works.
Speaker 2:When you say you must repent, you must be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit, they are afraid that they're having to do something to earn this thing. But the Bible is very clear Faith is an action. It's not a noun, it's a verb. Well, it's kind of both it's a noun and a verb Faith is a noun, belief is a verb Is the action of faith.
Speaker 2:So you know, you can't just say you believe in God. You have to do something to show you have faith in God. So what that is is repentance, baptism and asking for something that you cannot see to receive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people and I can break this down really quick. We could talk about it deeper in another time, another episode. But, um, people get so scared they do it's so funny in this language they like it just so scared that they're going to enter into works and they're going to earn their salvation and stuff like that. I'm like that's not what paul was talking about. Paul was not talking about obeying jesus and getting into workspace salvation. Paul was talking about believing that the law was going to save you. That's right, right, that's what he was talking to Jews. He was saying, hey, listen.
Speaker 2:These laws and these sacrifices are not going to save you.
Speaker 1:Right, you must have faith in Christ. But faith in Christ, it's like an umbrella that encompasses all of these things. Like James tells us that faith without works is dead. Not that the works save you, but the works are confirmation that your faith was genuine.
Speaker 1:And so they didn't separate these things, quite like we separate them now. You know, in the first century they weren't asking well, do I have to do that? Do I have to repent, or can I just say forgive me of all of my sins? Do I have to repent of my individual sins? Do I have to be baptized? Do I have to do this? Do I have to do that? They were not saying that they just did that. I love Francis Chan's take on this he's like.
Speaker 1:listen, if the Bible said, stand on your head to be saved, I'd flip and stand on my head. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 2:It's just stuff that we and I get it, I get it.
Speaker 1:It's cool, I understand it. I understand wrestling with stuff. We want to make sure that we're doing the right thing, but I think about this, though.
Speaker 2:Think about this In the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, there's only one chapter that has the full gospel being preached and the full response to the gospel happen all in one chapter in the Bible, right, the whole entire Bible. That one chapter is Acts 2. Peter preaches the gospel. He says you have sinned, you've killed the Messiah. He calls out their sin and then their response is what shall we do? And his response was repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit. Why do we try to remove parts or say they're not necessary, when that was just the response? Why are we adding to or taking away?
Speaker 1:That's what scares me. Do you know why? It's because we start to think of our loved ones that didn't respond in that way and it makes us look for loopholes. That's right, that's why.
Speaker 2:Or loopholes for ourselves, for ourselves or whatever.
Speaker 1:You know, aunt Sally accepted Jesus on her deathbed and she couldn't talk and all she did was believe. She didn't have time to repent and she couldn't talk and all she did was believe she didn't have time to repent, and so we take these extreme exceptions and we try to make them general rules.
Speaker 2:That's right, or we?
Speaker 1:try to find other places in the Bible. Most people don't understand is that when you're reading in different portions of Scripture, you have to understand the context of what covenant they were in. That's right. You can't just pull something out of the Old Testament, old Testament, and say this is, this is how we respond to the gospel. You can't necessarily pull everything out of the gospels, whoa, and say this is how we respond, why Jesus hadn't died yet. So things shifted and changed after he died and rose again and gave his commands to the disciples. That's why all of a sudden uh, you know, you run into scriptures like Acts 19, where disciples of John who had already been baptized by John were now being baptized in Christ by Paul to Christ and receiving the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues and prophesying Like you have to understand where you're at. So the book of Acts is, in my opinion, is the greatest place to look, where we see in different sections of it.
Speaker 1:Conversions. Right, because the letters are written to people who are already born again. Right, in the old covenant they were under a different covenant, different kind of style, if you will, relationship with God. Jesus hadn't died. There was nothing to really be baptized into or they were being baptized into repentance.
Speaker 2:Their only prerequisites was to die in faith, in faithfulness to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the thief on the cross was in the same position as. Abraham Isaac and Jacob. That's right, right, okay, so, um, awesome, well, let's land this plane. Uh, so now I know that the true gospel, right, it's amazing. What, what do I? What do I do? What do I do if I'm the person that just realized I have? I have responded to a um, let's say, I a sinner's prayer gospel, and I haven't really seen the fruit of transformation in my life. What do I do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. First humble yourself, repent for responding to a false gospel. I think is the first start. And then, I think, start reading through the book of Acts. Look at Acts 2 and see if you've truly repented. Like Peter, called out their specific offense towards God and I'm sure there was many others in their heart, but the main one that was keeping them in separation was the death of the Messiah. So really get real before God.
Speaker 2:Repentance is not like oh Father, just forgive me of my sins. No, what do you need to be saved from? What I need to be saved from is different than what you need to be saved from, vice versa. And so you confess your sins to God. What is it that you need to be saved from? I need to be saved from prostitution, addiction, all these things. When I say prostitution, I wasn't like a paid prostitute. I was actually unpaid, which wasn't very smart. But now I look back, I'm like gosh. I was not smart, but I needed to be rescued from certain things that others don't need to be. But what do you need to be saved from? And once you get that out, first of all you're going to feel like the weight of the world is off your shoulders. I know, that's how I felt. I was like I feel so light, what just happened to me, you know. And then says in Romans, chapter six and again, I'm not saying that baptism alone saves, no, I believe being born again saves Repent be baptized, Jesus saves right.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, jesus saves, obviously through the death on the cross. But he said, hey, to be born into my kingdom. This is what you have to do. He told Nicodemus at the met him at Secret. He said you must be born of water and spirit. Water, baptism, holy Ghost. I think about coming to Texas, moving here. There was a whole lot of processes to become a citizens of Texas. What if we would have skipped one of those processes? I would have had a lot of fines to pay. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:So it's the same concept. Jesus's death is what brings salvation, it's what brings freedom. But there's a response to that death, there's a response to that drawing, and it's repent, be baptized and receive. So I think baptism is that washing away your sins, getting yourself a clean conscience through baptism, burying the old life. It says Romans 6,. Y'all read it if you have never read it before. It says baptism is three things a burial, a bath and a resurrection. You're burying the old Brooke, the old, justin, the old, whoever. It literally says resurrected in the very nature and likeness of Christ Jesus. And then it says now you are an empty, clean vessel to be filled with the presence of God. So you've been buried, you've been resurrected in the nature of Christ and now you are clean and now you receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now you can actually receive the gift of the Holy Spirit because you have done away with your sin. Repentance and baptism does away with your sin, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's great, I would say, to make it simple in one step begin to seek. God now, with this new lens and this new framework, because the the, the scripture promises that we seek him, we'll find him. That's the coolest thing. It's like you're like what do I do? Or do I need to reach out to you guys? Or you know all this stuff? It's like. It's like begin to seek the.
Speaker 1:Lord on these things, and he will. He will not only show you, he'll put the right people in your life to lead you and disciple you. By us ending this episode and just saying, okay, if you're ready to make that decision, then repeat after me, doesn't accomplish a lot. You seek the Lord.
Speaker 2:He is radically born again in my bedroom, received the Holy spirit in my bedroom. It can happen in your bedroom. You just have to humble yourself. And then God began to put people in my life to disciple me. But all that happened with me just humbling myself and seeking God with my whole heart. That's where it starts. People are like it doesn't work. I'm like it works. I promise we can't say God's a liar. We have to humble ourselves.
Speaker 1:And we do.
Speaker 2:We believe that you should be connected to a body of your life.
Speaker 1:That's right To lead you, awesome. Well, thank you so much for your insight. I feel good and feel refreshed.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Born again All the things. Hope you guys enjoyed it. Thank you so much for being on our first episode of the. Rechurch podcast. Hope you guys were blessed by this conversation. We got plenty more down the line and plenty plenty to talk about and I'm so excited about that. Appreciate you guys, love you guys and we'll see you in the next episode.